 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2006-11-27 22:32
Primart scales are supposed to cycle around in fourths, down in whole steps, and down in minor thirds too (Gershwin). So look at the blues that goes back and forth from, say, C7 to F7 and back to C7. How do you go backwards in the fourths from the F7 back to C7? after all, that is a fifth. Well, it sounds crude in the traditional blues. So you have to add some secondary harmony to make it sound sophisticated in modern jazz.
My harmony uses only one kind of primary scale: the compound minor (cm) is a combination of the natural minor and the harmonic minor (do not worry, it contains major modes in it). The secondary harmony comes from the melodic minor (mm) and diminished (dim) scales. The primary scales sound good by themselves for long periods of time (to distinguish them).
Freedom! Only one diminished scale can precede the primary scale (as its dominant) while all three can follow it. The dominant of a primary scale can also be a melodic minor scale: G7 to Ccm means Ab melodic minor to Ccm. Guess what? All three dim scales can precede a mm scale while not the cm scale. So try this: transpose this pattern into other keys as you cycle it, Abmm Ccm Cdim, Dbmm Fcm Fdim, etc, as we cycle. We can do the cycle of fourths that went from Ccm to Fcm with the extra scales thrown in. Now go back and forth between the Ccm and Fcm, it will sound like a modern blues.
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Author: Merlin
Date: 2006-11-27 23:29
I think you just managed to make the blues sound complicated.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-11-27 23:37
Merlin wrote:
> I think you just managed to make the blues sound complicated.
Reminds me of those dreadful language (German in my case) classes where we analysed poems till they lost their spell...
--
Ben
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-11-28 00:00
I don't think that those blokes sitting on the back porch in the deep South of the USA would have worried too much about progressions.
Ever heard a one chord blues played?
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2006-11-28 00:52
Ken's post is quite good, actually. It might not apply to Sonny Boy Williamson, but a lot of "modern jazz" is extended blues vocabulary with the kind of harmonic mechanisms Ken is talking about.
I love Muddy Waters (and Sonny Boy!) but I also love Mingus, Bird, Allan Holdsworth etc. and I think all are perfectly valid approaches to music...
..or in clarinet language, Pee Wee Russell and Eddie Daniels! You don't go to one of them to get what the other has to offer...
On the other hand, I disagree with dismissing a one (or two or three) chord blues as "crude". Just because something has more chords doesn't make it better automatically- there's plenty of shite 'fusion' music that looks sophisticated 'on paper' IMHO.
www.johnmcgann.com
Post Edited (2006-11-28 01:00)
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Author: Merlin
Date: 2006-11-28 01:27
jmcgann wrote:
> On the other hand, I disagree with dismissing a one (or two or
> three) chord blues as "crude". Just because something has more
> chords doesn't make it better automatically- there's plenty of
> shite 'fusion' music that looks sophisticated 'on paper' IMHO.
>
And the argument against a retrograde progression V-IV-I doesn't wash.
Church music just wouldn't sound the same without a plagel cadence.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-11-28 05:53
Other than some technical things Ken Mills wrote which are correct, I have a problem with some other things.
"the blues harmony problem"
History proves it is not a problem.
"Well, it sounds crude in the traditional blues."
This is not a problem. The way this sounds, which you describe as crude, is exactly what causes the "traditional" blues to sound the way it does. Also, why shouldn't it sound crude?
If you meant that this sounds too crude for more modern, non-traditional types of blues, then many people already changed the basic blues harmony, a long time before what we consider "modern" today.
"it will sound like a modern blues."
Imo you (or anyone) should play with musical ideas, regardless of their "style" (i.e. the style will come out of the music). If anyone wants to have something sound like something (i.e. modern blues in this case) there should be even a philosophical (or maybe social) reason for the music to sound this way in a specific context.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2006-11-28 16:13
There is a previous thread on this same subject, although I think Ken better explained things this time.
I would like to see a complex minor spelled out, just to make sure. The description sounds to me like natural minor with the option of a major 7th. Here's what I'm thinking:
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 7
How about it, Ken?
Unless I'm mistaken, substituting Ab melodic minor for a G7 chord is actually known as the G altered dominant scale.
1 b2 b3 3 #4 #5 #6/b7 [sorry for mixing sharps & flats, guys]
I am puzzled by the idea of a diminished scale "following" the primary scale. While progressions may move from left to right, they are generally derived from right to left. It seems to me that whatever follows your chord/scale of resolution, is simply the starting point of a new progression and therefore is defined by its destination.
Another approach that I've heard advocated is simply to play in the dorian mode based on your key center, and add the b5/#4 as an optional note. Basically a blues scale with a major 2 and a major 6 available.
A couple of things that I think are imporant to note about the blues:
1 - Blues that are rich in dominant chords (i.e. most of them) make almost every note legal, with the greatest risk of clash being on the 4th and major 7th above the root of the chord. (as opposed to the root of the key) That's a lot of safe territory to simply use your ear in.
2 - Some blues don't have a dominant flavor to their tonic chords, and in those cases, these complex approaches will crash and burn. That dominant 7th is very important in linking the basic triad with its upper extensions.
Asleep At the Wheel recorded a really basic I-I, IV-I, V-I blues (Blues, Stay Away from Me) in which the tonic chords appear to be actual 6th chords (as opposed to 13ths). I like to use it with students who have learned to live and breathe the blues scale, and who are not learning to address chord changes. A lot of blue notes, upper extensions, and outright substitutions start getting awkward when there isn't a dominant 7th to act as a mixing note.
Allen Cole
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-11-28 20:16
''Blues that are rich in dominant chords (i.e. most of them) make almost every note legal''
What does this comment about being ''legal'' mean?
Music is music - rules are there to be broken. Sticking with convention is tantamount to stagnancy.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2006-11-30 05:58
Ned,
Read the entire paragraph. With the exception of the 4th/11th and the major 7th above the root, almost any other note on the chromatic scale sounds acceptable above a well-voiced dominant 7th chord. If you need an explanation of why this is the case, I will provide one. If not, I won't bore the group with it.
In other words, I'm saying that blues which has tonic chords of a dominant flavor possesses a palette of tonal choices that make Ken's formula seem a bit limiting. In blues where the tonic chords are NOT dominant, his system might not work well at all. We'll know more about this after Ken clarifies this thing that he refers to as a complex minor scale.
As for the stagnancy of sticking to convention, I would reply that improvised music is a very conventional activity, in which all the players in a group must to conform both to the structure and harmony of the piece being played, and to their roles as players. Breaking the rules is anything BUT what it's all about. If we weren't so dependent on our rules, formulae and tricks, this thread would not have been started. Show me an Ornette Coleman, and I'll show you a band with no chord instrument.
On the 3-chord blues as musical knuckle-dragging:
I picked up an album today by James Brown called "Soul on Top" (1969), where the godfather is performing with the Louie Bellson big band on charts by Oliver Nelson. The album notes quote Brown as saying the following to Leonard Feather:
"When I'm not working, I never listen to rock. How can you advance when all you hear is three chords?"
Obviously, we can all take this with a grain of salt, but I thought it was a very amusing quote for JB.
Allen Cole
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-11-30 09:11
"With the exception of the 4th/11th and the major 7th above the root, almost any other note on the chromatic scale sounds acceptable above a well-voiced dominant 7th chord."
On one CD I have Hank Mobely plays the major 7th on a dominant chord, repeatedly. I haven't heard it in years but if I remember correct he played repeatedly the C major triad over F7 chord.
I have a recording where Eric Dolphy plays the 4th repeatedly (especially emphesizing it) over a dominant chord. The accompaniment for Dolphy on that track is pretty conventional (what I mean by that is that if not for Dolphy's solo you would say it is "regular" jazz). I think it is a blues maybe (I don't remember exactly).
"As for the stagnancy of sticking to convention, I would reply that improvised music is a very conventional activity, in which all the players in a group must to conform both to the structure and harmony of the piece being played, and to their roles as players. Breaking the rules is anything BUT what it's all about. If we weren't so dependent on our rules, formulae and tricks, this thread would not have been started. Show me an Ornette Coleman, and I'll show you a band with no chord instrument."
Can you clarify exactly what you meant here? You say "improvsed music" but you describe only a very specific part of improvised music (which I personally wouldn't even call improvised music). A lot of other improvised music also have the players relate to the harmony/structure/etc. that is being played, and also have their roles as players (isn't this also in any music?), but it is nothing like what I think you said here (i.e. conventional).
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2006-11-30 23:18
To make more simple: I should have mentioned that I was in the Bb blues key with the examples of the Ccm and the Fcm scales which make a modern voicing of the Bb7 and Eb7 chords respectively in the Bb blues. You can also throw in the Bb major scale especially on the F7 which appears less often but on the Bb7 chord too. Thank You, We know about endurance, Do Not forget to play those blues I7 and IV7 arpeggios to sound traditional, Ken
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