 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2006-11-14 02:31
Anyone know what Level the Finzi Clarinet Concerto based on the RCM (Royal Conservatory of Music) standards of 1~10 + ARCT?
Also, anyone know where I can find the Repertoire that go with each of these RCM levels?
Your help will be appreciated :D
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-11-14 17:17
Looks to me like you need to buy the syllabus:
http://www.rideaumusic.com/product-263083
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-11-14 18:31
I don't know what the levels mean but it would certainly be 10 or above. Some moments of difficulty but moments of absolute beauty.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Anthony_Madderson
Date: 2006-11-14 22:03
Ah, a wonderful work and indeed full of moments of sublime beauty. It is only a shame that the last time I heard this work performed it was by a performer of less then professional ability to be able to share these moments with the audience. Of course I speak of Emma Johnson who gave a very second rate performance of this work recently in London.
However, not to be sidetracked. Does anybody know if this syllabus grades works on musical level or just technical?
Anthony Madderson
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-11-14 22:24
Anthony, not to blow my own trumpet, i'm doing the Finzi in Birmingham next year.
The ABRSM grades work on both musical and technical skills. I do feel though that the grade 8 scales for instance need to go up to altissimo A as some of the pieces on the syllabus go up there. With regard to the original post I would be interested in the levels etc of syllabus' of different countries.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2006-11-14 22:58
WHAT!?!?!? You need to *BUY* the Syllabus...? Wow...
Emma Johnson not good? I haven't really heard much of her music.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-11-14 23:37
Anthony_Madderson wrote:
> Of course I speak of Emma Johnson
You can judge people by what they say ... and what they don't say. Often silence is the better choice.
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Author: bawa
Date: 2006-11-15 11:07
Yes,
this buying of syllabus seems to be odd.
After all, one does pay to audition and the sheet music you are using is not cheap either.
If it is to cover the printing/distribution costs, surely that has become outdated in these days of downloading?
Universities will send you huge brochures for free or allow you to download large files with course details.
Maybe its time for a change of policy.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-11-15 11:39
Malcolm Martland wrote:
> Well I think Emma is great! ![[up]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley24.gif)
> Malcolm
Let's talk about the Concerto rather than Emma, please. Mark C., moderator.
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2006-11-15 11:47
What is the benchmark recording of the Finzi? Is there one? I've heard the Hacker - it was pretty nice.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-11-15 14:00
I like Michael Collins' recording, and Robert Plane's recording gets a lot of radio airplay in the UK.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-11-15 14:36
"WHAT!?!?!? You need to *BUY* the Syllabus...? Wow..."
Well, I had a good look at their site, and I couldn't find any way to download it (as you can for all the UK exam boards). You could ring them and ask! But $14.95 Canadian doesn't seem so very expensive.
.................
I for one would welcome people's views on the merits or otherwise of different recordings of the Finzi, Emma Johnson's included. I hope Mark C is not trying to ban reasoned and justified criticism of performers, something that is not outlawed by the BBoard rules. Comments like: "I like X's version but Y plays badly as usual" aren't helpful, of course.
Such discussion of recordings is valuable, not only in helping me decide what to buy, but to help me listen more carefully and critically to recordings I have already bought.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-11-15 15:13
David Peacham wrote:
> I hope Mark C is not trying to ban reasoned and
> justified criticism of performers, something that is not
> outlawed by the BBoard rules.
Mark C. has seen very little on this BBoard in the way of "reasoned and justified criticism of performers", but would welcome same.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-11-15 17:39
The bench mark for the Finzi concerto has to be Andrew Marriner's recording
Peter Cigleris
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Author: DaveF
Date: 2006-11-15 17:46
I'd be interested as well on what people consider the "benchmark" recording of the Finzi. I recently spent a fair amount of time listening online to 60 sec clips of each movement posted at Amazon and other sites. I heard Hacker, E. Johnson, James Campbell, Robt. Plane, Thea King, Stoltzman, Margaret Donaghue, and George MacDonald. (I didn't come across the Michael Collins recording mentioned earlier). Granted, 60 sec clips are hardly a good judge of the entire recording. Only the third movement has a good amount of clarinet playing at the opening of the movement. However, to my ear I liked by far Stoltzman's.........however this recording "Finzi, Ashmore and Ashmore" with Guildhall String Ensemble is apparently permanently out of print. Others that sounded pleasing based on the opening short clips were King, Plane, and Campbell. I ordered Thea King's recording, partly because it is coupled with the Stanford Concerto, another recording I don't have. But, I'd sure like to get my hands on Stoltzman's recording.
Dave F.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-11-15 20:29
My friend has that cd. I've heard the Ashmore. I also have Thea's recording and found that to be good. There is a line here as her late Husband Fredrick Thurston premiered the work in Hereford Catherdral as part of the Three Choirs Festival.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2006-11-16 00:34
Stoltzman's recording is, IMHO, his best recording todate. It's VERY special and well worth a listen.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2006-11-16 03:30
I recently spoke at length with Thea King about suggestions to the performer based on her intimate knowledge of this magnificent piece representative of the English pastoral style and splendor via her special relationship with Thurston (her teacher and husband). I was about to perform the concerto for the first time and wanted to go to a reliable source as to insights into it's history in order to give context to an interpretation showing some degree of fidelity to the score.
I did mention that there were obviously a few recordings made of it (and tried to persuade her to tell me if there was a recorded performance of the premiere that she may have in her possession, to no avail), hoping to get her opinion as to which recordings she felt would best exude the style of the piece as she remembered the Finzi being performed in the style of the day.
First and foremost she was adamant about the fact that the piece was romantic enough without the performer having to resort to gilding the lily or pouring honey on sugar which she hoped her own performances avoided. Fair enough I thought and we proceeded section by section, movement by movement discussing how that was best accomplished. She was always insistent that the performer play with expression but not give artistic licence a bad name by straying outside the bounds of the romantic style already inherent on the printed page.
Near the end of our extremely informative conversation about tempi, transitions, and style, I tried again to persuade her to recommend performances that she had heard beside that of her own whom she thought best expressed the style of the period and that were what she thought were inspired performances in their own right.
I finally overcame my hesitancy in our exchange of pleasantries and became more direct (as my European friends like to use the expression on these occasions). I threw out suggestions of my own two favorite performances on CD and she was delighted to excitedly agree with me on both counts - firstly that of Michael Collins, whom I personally believe "owns" the work, and secondly Andrew Marriner who gives a delightful performance of great fidelity if not of equal finesse and depth as that of a relatively young Collins from 1990. (He recently performed it live which I heard on BBC 3 almost 16 years later with little or no difference in interpretation except it's liveliness due partly to the fact that it was not simply a studio recording.)
In that light I can only conclude that by comparison, while the Plane is a bit academic, never really getting off the ground to achieve the soaring heights that the exalted melodies and harmonies require, and that in complete opposition to the style of simple fidelity to the printed instructions that Finzi lays forth, that the Stoltzman recording would be laughable if not so sad, lacking completely due to it's offensively self-indulgent interpretation.* It would have to be the complete antithesis of the style both in terms of expression and execution at the most basic of levels. Dramamine required.
Other performances that I have heard on radio or own such as Hacker (blatant, rather wooden and unsympathetic), Campbell, Donaghue, MacDonald, Johnson, and Denmann are all to varying degrees second rate with much less to recommend them IMO.
Gregory Smith
*A discussion about "interpretation" and the Debussy Rhapsodie might illuminate this point further in a thread from a few years back:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=877&t=877
On edit:
The Collins recording is available (used only) at Amazon.com
Post Edited (2006-11-16 04:32)
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Author: bawa
Date: 2006-11-16 09:31
Gregory,
That was very interesting.
When you mentioned listening to it recently on BBC radi03, ...I must have missed it (I am a frequent listener).
Maybe we could have a permanent thread or something where if you know some clarinet works are going to be played on any of the Internet radios, you could leave a short message to that effect.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-11-16 10:27
I also think that Stoltzman's recording is slightly self-indulgent. I recall hearing him do it with the CBSO in Birmingham about 4 years ago, the wide vibrato, far to much rubato. Colin Parr didn't enjoy it and he was a real player in the 'English' tradition. Stoltzman was a charming fellow and i had quite an interesting chat about playing etc. I was lucky cause i played Eb in the other concerts, he played his 'jazz' and show tune type pieces with the orchestra.
Peter Cigleris
Post Edited (2006-11-16 11:10)
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2006-11-16 11:49
Gregory,
Thanks for the insight. I've just ordered both the Marriner and the Collins recordings based on your recommendations. I know it's been said before, but it's such a treat to have someone of your expertise on the board. Thanks for stopping by once in a while and offering your opinions and wisdom.
Post Edited (2006-11-16 11:50)
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Author: DaveF
Date: 2006-11-16 17:39
Thanks so much Gregory for the insight from your conversation with Thea King. Now, if you or others are willing, how would you rate (or just describe) Thea King's recording with the Collins and Marriner recordings?
By the way, I can't find the Collins recording anywhere, obviously out of print, and no used ones posted at Amazon. The Marriner recording has been reissued by Arkivmusic.com, after apparently going out of print from Phillips. At least that one is available.
Dave F.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2006-11-16 19:18
At Amazon type in- finzi clarinet concerto collins -and you will see a small blue hyperlink to used and new that are indeed available.
Gregory Smith
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-11-16 23:18
The Finzi concerto is a rare jewell that needs to shine more often than it does. I cannot remember a live performance of it in Sydney ever (at least in the last 43 odd years).
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Gobboboy
Date: 2006-11-17 21:57
I Agree with peter totally
the most passionate recording of this beautiful concerto is most definately Andrew Marriners.
Recorded in 97' on the philips label - I saw Andrew play this with the LSO at the Barbican in London and Gerald Finzi's Wife was there, she came on stage afterwards saying that it was the most moving playing she had heard.
If you are learning this peice then you must hear this recording, for tone colour, beauty of sound, phrasing of the more lyrical parts and attack at really delicate dynamic levels.
Marriner is still the greatest musician alive who owns a clarinet
G
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