 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-11-03 06:48
Hi-
I have a mouthpiece that is missing about half of the tip rail because it was dropped (I didn't do it).
The missing piece is gone forever. So I would like to rebuild the tip but I am not sure what to use. I already tried a 30min epoxy, and let it dry for a day. But I was easily able to remove it with a twist of my fingers.
Is there any spicific epoxy or cement that work really well for this? Are there any tricks to getting it to stick better?
fyi- it's a vandoren B40; nothing special, but I am really just fixing it to learn more.
thanks,
S
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2006-11-03 07:51
1. Replace your mouthpiece as your 'playing' mouthpiece.
2. Try epoxy putty, sold in the UK as 'Milliput', available at art, craft and model makers' suppliers. It is a 2-part epoxy, like epoxy glue, but when wet is like potter's clay and sticks to everything. When dry (overnight) it can be filed, sanded and painted. I have no idea whether this will work or not, but would be an interesting learning experience to try. Good luck!
PS I know nothing about mouthpiece repair so if any of the mouthpiece makers reply to this thread, take their advice over mine!
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-11-03 12:29
There are a few refacers on this BBS with more experience, but the materials used are quite consistent - mostly two part epoxies.
I like Devcon's "Plastic Steel" which will flow into a mold with few voids formed
(no bubbles).
If you make a form or dam with wax paper, there will be less clean up of rough edges.
FYI - The tip rail is VERY difficult to rebuild without a solid bond to the existing rubber. It may very well be a lost cause.
Use a flat plate of glass and sandpaper to reshape the tip.
Play after each adjustment and STOP! when it's playable.
Overworking these things will lead to large dimensional changes that could render the mouthpiece (again) unplayable.
PS - Now is a chance to try different mouthpiece facings - like the M30.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-11-03 13:47
I certainly support anyone's attempts to learn how to repair clarinets and parts. However......what you are attempting is, based on my attempts, really a lesson in frustration. I am guesssing that....if I wanted to spend the money.....I'd be looking at dental acrylic and one of those expensive dental acrylic curing lights. But I don't even know if the acrylic would bond to the hard rubber to the extent necessary for a proper job. I seem to recall there is someone who makes silicone rubber molds of existing mps and goes from there. There is at least one person who could do the repair properly.....of that I'm certain.
Bob Draznik
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Author: chazman
Date: 2006-11-03 14:35
I'm sorry to say, toss it and buy a new one. The likelihood of every getting it to play correctly again using the method you describe is a lost cause.
The good news is there are plenty of great replacement mouthpieces on the market.
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2006-11-03 14:43
Make sure you score the broken rubber surface with a file (#2 Grobet rat tail file is what I would use) to make it porous enough for the epoxy to hold. If this doesn’t work, you can make a tip replacement with a beak portion from another rubber mouthpiece. Score both surfaces with a file and glue them together with epoxy.
I like epoxy because it exists in a type that has a similar hardness and works similarly to hard rubber. It is water resistant and somewhat flexible as well. I actually have several mouthpiece prototypes that are made entirely of epoxy and cured with ultraviolet light. They don’t have the sound of rubber but they work amazingly well. I will submit a photo in a couple of days.
Reworking the tip portion of your newly repaired mouthpiece does require skill and care but there is no better time than the present to begin learning. Good luck.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-11-03 19:05
Brad, I would caution you that while epoxies are indeed water-repellent, they nevertheless do absorb considerable amounts of moisture -- which ultimately can lead to swelling and/or debonding. Epoxy is good, but not quite a panacea.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-11-03 22:09
I'm thinking that Brad is the person who repaired Brenda's mp.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-11-04 00:08
Yep. It was he.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2006-11-04 00:53
There is a huge difference between putting two broken pieces of a mouthpiece back together and filling in (or out) for a critical missing piece.
Compounding the problem by a large factor is the fact that in this case, part of the tip rail and perhaps part of tip baffle is largely missing - two of the most critical parts of any mouthpiece. It's kind of like losing a part of one's cerebral cortex. And no hard drive back-up from which to reconstruct from.
It might make for a nice exercise and who knows, something may end up working that resembles the original. Maybe by accident, something better than the original. But the bar has to be set pretty low as far as expectations go.
Not to rain on anyone's parade because it sounds like a worthwhile exercise if just to understand the process. Realistically, I wouldn't get the impression that something this radical is done successfully on a regular basis with consistent success, especially with your own best mouthpiece.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-11-04 01:13
It is fun to try, to experiment, etc.
But the result may be less than satisfactory.
Fortunately, this particular model is replaceable and deeply discounted by the big outlets.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2006-11-04 21:42
hey david, is your email link broken? i tried emailing you, but it bounced back.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2006-11-04 22:24
David,
In this instance, I agree with you. With most repairs there are potential downfalls. Epoxy may not create a perfect life-long bond and the mouthpiece’s resonance may be altered, but in some cases a repair using epoxy may create the best compromise.
I didn’t suggest epoxy was a panacea.
When used properly epoxy can be used for some helpful mouthpiece repairs (for example a beak replacement, or insert/filler). In the case of skygardner’s inquiry, I would prefer a beak replacement instead of the epoxy insert, but I have played mouthpieces with epoxy tip rail inserts that worked very well.
I have included a photo (see attachment) that shows three mouthpieces made entirely from epoxy. These mouthpieces were made using a rapid prototyping technique that uses a laser to paint a three dimensional solid replica out of epoxy resin that is cured with ultraviolet light. The technology has been around for years but to me it is amazing.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-11-05 00:01
Attachment: BundyBell1.jpg (57k)
Attachment: BundyBell2.jpg (52k)
Incidentally I've just returned from repairing a badly chipped (plastic) bell; I've used some polyester fiberglass that I found in the car repair box.
Is that stuff food safe? (Not that anyone would eat a bell, but who knows)
--
Ben
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-11-05 00:01
Brad, I wish I could see your all-epoxy mouthpieces, but every time I try to open your attachment my home computer crashes! I'll have to try it from work --- I'm sure they are very cool.
I'm somewhat familiar with the rapid prototyping process -- it's used to make models of new parts to check their fit with other parts, not to create usable products (if I understand correctly).
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-11-05 00:03
David,
had the same problem (sans the crash). Just right-click on the attachment link and select "Save link as ..." and then open from outside the browser.
--
Ben
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-11-05 00:14
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> I'm somewhat familiar with the rapid prototyping process --
> it's used to make models of new parts to check their fit with
> other parts, not to create usable products (if I understand
> correctly).
I was one of testers of the original stereolithography machines back in the late 80s (and creator of some of the original SLA files used for testing). Essentially you're correct in layman's terms. Fit, interference checking, manufacturability, assembly, and a few other characteristics can be checked. Cool stuff.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-11-05 00:18
Don't dentists use that technology to create implant masters/molds?
--
Ben
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2006-11-05 18:04
These three epoxy mouthpieces are playable and I have actually been rather impressed with their response and sound. I think they lack the depth and color of good hard rubber though. Each mouthpiece represents slight variation in the nature of the bore (as per my designs) and I needed to make lower cost rapid prototypes before I commit to an expensive production run on the CNC. Also it is very helpful to be able to feel, touch, and play the design to determine if anything needs change. The great thing about this technology is that it is very quick and rather accurate. I was able to go to the machine shop, hand them my solid model (program) and they had three prototypes for me the next morning.
They work very similarly to hard rubber. Although they are slightly harder, they do have a tackier feel on the sandpaper and more material is removed with similar pressure. I have faced one of them (very slightly) and I can say that it seems to respond to facing alterations in a familiar way.
On my last round of rapid prototypes I used a different three dimensional printing technology with acrylic. It worked very well but the bores ended up a bit ovoid due to the differential in resolutions on the X, Y, and Z axes. On the other hand, the epoxy prototype technique allowed for a better mouthpiece orientation in the resin to create a more accurate bore. Interestingly these mouthpieces are translucent and this gives me an additional line-of-sight for analysis.
In my experience this technology allows for a playable mouthpiece that can be invaluable during the R&D phase of a new design. There is no substitution for the real thing however. To be able to make a hard rubber billet into a finished mouthpiece is very rewarding. For me, nothing sounds, feels, and responds like good rubber. The reason why rubber sounds, feels, and responds different than other material is due to the interface of the vibrating reed to the mouthpiece. Sure the facing counts, but so does the visco-elastic framework of the material the reed is vibrating against. The purpose of making mouthpieces from three-dimensional printing techniques is to check the design and have real world field tests before committing to an expensive production run. The main subjective perspective that can lead to some confusion in the analysis is to try to differentiate the effects of the material versus the design. Some materials don’t sound as good as rubber (with respect to mouthpieces) and it is important to try to understand the different influences at hand.
The great thing about this technology is that it is readily available and it has no end of potential uses. For me it is an amazing technology (much like the movie The Fifth Element, in the scene where they brought the Milla Jovovich character back to life). It isn’t especially cheap yet…the service contract alone for the 3-D jet printer is $14,000 per year, and the Epoxy-resin-laser machine cost several hundred thousand dollars, but there are lower priced machines (lower resolution) that I have seen for as little as $20,000. http://www.zcorp.com Perhaps one day a machine like this will be in every kindergarten, and instead of Playdough, kids will be creating things with computer aided design. It is very exciting that clarinet playing has brought me to experience first hand, what seems like futuristic technology.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-11-05 21:38
Very impressive, Brad, but have to admit I don't fully understand it. Your comment about hard rubber having a special relationship to the reed is really thought provoking. One of the things I still don't fathom is why there is such an abundance of metal mps for saxes but they are rare for clarinets.
I guess I'm fixated on acrylic for mps as opposed to epoxies due to the widespread successful usage in the dental field.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Mark Fleming
Date: 2006-11-05 22:20
Aside from the initial problem in getting epoxy to bond to hard rubber, there is going to be the problem of whether the two materials have the same expansion coefficient. A mouthpiece goes through repeated and fairly large heat cycles.
I'd be tempted to add a mechanical fastener. Drive straight pins in a low angle, creating a criss-cross. Cut them off where they would rise above the finished surface. Now, when the epoxy cures, the piece is mechanically locked together. I'd second the recommendation of Devcon's Liquid Steel, having made some remarkable repairs with it (but also some classic failures). Good luck.
Mark
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-11-06 18:20
Mark F....sounds like a dentist I went to once. When I sat down in the chair I didn't see any drill. Then he walked in with a mahogany chest that contained all these tiny chisels and a little bronze hammer.
Bob Draznik
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-11-14 06:17
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Hi-
I have been successful in using epoxy in this little experiment. I don't know if it plays like it did before (it is not my mouthpiece), but it plays just as well as any other Vandoren.
Before one starts they should measure with facing so that they can match it to its original specs as close as possible.
Taking the advice that you all gave, here are the steps that I used-
1. Scraped the open surface with a #2 file.
2. Used Devcon Plastic steel. Mixing is the real hard part. The 2 parts of the epoxy must be mixed very thoroughly. To do this, I put the 2 parts in a small plastic bottle cap; put a toothpick (any deposable stick would work) in a hand drill; at a LOW speed, I placed the toothpick into the cap, mixing the two parts for more than a minute until the color was completely consistent. I tried it many times by hand, but this drill idea mixed the two parts better and faster than I ever could have done manually. The important part is to keep the toothpick vertical in the cap- an aggressive slant will make a bit of a mess.
3. Quickly put a bit in the scraped surface and rub it in to make sure you have no bubbles in the scratches made by the file. Let the mixture sit for a few minutes to thicken. Then, put more epoxy on the piece, with lots of extra.
4. To prevent the epoxy from flowing into the mouthpiece, let it hang upside-down from a clip.
5. I had a recurring problem of the epoxy falling off onto the table (gravity will get you every time). Easily fixed by placing electric tape from one side to the other in a “bow” shape to catch the falling epoxy. Let it dry for a day.
6. **USE A MASK FOR THIS NEXT PART** When it dries, file the excess (I used a Dremel to save time on the excess); when it gets closer to a looking like a mouthpiece use finer and finer files/ sandpaper. Needle files that are curved will be very useful in cleaning up the baffle.
From this point, just use the normal refacing techniques to match the facing back to its original numbers.
Some of you mentioned the moisture absorption and toxins, so I soaked it in water for 2 days and then I tried to break the piece off with my fingers- there was no weakness and I suppose any toxins that would come out with saliva went into the water. However, I found a quick way to induce a patina. The mouthpiece got a bit slimy after 2 days in the water and now the entire front half is a little brown. After I dried it, there was no problem. If you like the patina look, just soak it in regular water for 2 days.
This B40 plays great now (I actually don’t want to give it back to my friend that asked me to do it…
It was a fun project and I hope I never have to do it again (without getting paid for it).
Enjoy the pictures.
-S
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-11-14 08:57
Who said it couldn't be done. Your experience makes me think of my Dad who lived with the attitude he could do anything he set his mind to. Thanks for the memory.
Bob Draznik
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2006-11-14 13:52
Very nice job!
You've almost inspired me to brake one of my mouthpieces so that I can try to repair it again
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-11-16 03:40
Review from the original owner... "Great!"
This piece was her favorite before she dropped it 2 years ago. She has been on a search of another B40 ever since. (she now owns at least 6 other B40s!! But she only uses one and never uses the others.) I have never seen such happiness about a mouthpiece. The look in her eyes was like she had her best friend back.
The spiritual quest that is the mouthpiece... =)
-S
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-11-16 15:15
I'm a little late in joining the discussion, but yes, Brad was the one who fixed my broken Kaspar. He did a stunningly beautiful job. It played better after the break and his repair than it did before. Amazing.
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