 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: haberc
Date: 2006-11-09 22:25
Hey, anyone out there using a double lip embouchure to play clarinet???
I've been doing this for years and definitely have better tone quality.
the pain goes away! Just interested in hearing from others
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2006-11-10 12:48
How do you know your tone quality is "better?" Better than what? How do you measure "better?"
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-11-10 13:02
I'm finding that I am using the D L E more and more, in partic. for the bass and alto cls in concert band and solo playing, where the most "tender" playing is in the chalemeau [sp?]. With little sop Bb playing above the staff, to sort-of answer P G's question, it just sounds better to me, and I've received some compliments on alto harmonic "solos" Keep at it ! Don.
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2006-11-10 16:21
Ralph McLane, who was said to have the most beautiful clarinet tone of his generation, always used double lip, and so did Reginald Kell.
So you're in good company!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: sherman
Date: 2006-11-10 17:58
Harold Wright, Gino Cioffi, are names of truly gifted musicians of whom I can think quite quickly. Both played principal with the Boston Symphony at different times, of course. They both played double lip.
I first heard Wright with the National Symphony Orchestra and was simply hypnotized by the beauty of his playing. Gino was a teacher of mine and to sit next to him and listen to him play , say Daphnes and Chloe on the A and then the same music on the Bb was thrilling. He took in perhaps the smallest amount of mouthpiece I have ever seen, and when he came over to the US, he came playing with the reed on top....try it on single lip.
Now, these are not proofs of the double lip embouchure and it being the best one, but I feel that after starting many clarinetkids, who naturally cover both lips, and then feeling the difference in their playing, it is my clear opinion.
What the embouchure can do for you is the following:
1.You will cease banging your fingers, because it will hurt your mouth .
2.Your legato will improve immensely from not banging your fiingers.
3.If you bite, you will ache miserably and therefore you will not bite.
4. If you tend to leak air at the sides, you will probably cease this annoying habit. Annoying for you, and for the audience as well.
Depending on your desire to play with this embouchure, you will experience difficulty in playing throat F, and high C. Once you have gotten over these problems, you can decide to continue or go back, easily possible. It is an option, the practice of which has always seemed endlessly beneficial.
Sherman Friedland
Post Edited (2006-11-10 20:13)
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Author: Bill
Date: 2006-11-10 22:15
I made a conscious effort in 1995 to change from single- to double-lip, and I was successful. Now I cannot play the clarinet with my top teeth on the mouthpiece - it feels odd.
Yet I feel that both embouchure styles can be involved in beautiful playing. I feel it doesn't matter. No, I know it doesn't matter.
FWIW, I'm a terrible air leaker with my DL embouchure. I rationalize it by remembering that Glenn Gould hummed when he played the piano (and Casals hummed during performance as well, didn't he?).
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
Post Edited (2006-11-10 22:19)
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-11-11 01:03
Yes, was using double lip, until part of my top lip collapsed (or whatever, not sure of the medical term)..............perhaps it's called fatigue.
Anyway, I now have reverted to single lip for most of the time and resort to the former embouchure only from time to time as is comfortable.
I have not played since this lip collapse, only practiced, so I don't really know how long I can play in performance, without becoming tired.
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2006-11-12 03:52
Quick question as I look over this thread on double lip:
Does anyone out there perform with BOTH styles? ie: Single lip some of the time, double lip when very smooth legato is required. And I'm talking in a real performance, not just in practicing. Just curious.
Chris Arcand
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-11-12 06:25
I do (use both), but it depends on the music and the setting. Double lipping is easier when seated, so I tend not to use it when I'm standing (though I did do the Brahms double-lipped while standing). I will generally use it for slow movements and more "sensitive" passages. For some reason I generally use double-lipped for orchestra and single-lipped for band. Don't ask me why!
-Randy
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2006-11-12 06:55
I switch back and forth constantly. I always practice my long tones and scales double lip. Other than that, the performance situation dictates which one I use. When I have to march, double lip feels too unstable for comforts sake. It's possible, and I've done it, but single lip feels more secure in that situation. If seated, I play double lip, period. The fact of the matter is, if I had the option to never stand and play again, my teeth would never touch the mouthpiece.
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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Author: haberc
Date: 2006-11-12 11:34
I have always played double lip on clarinet and single lip an saxophone, my sax embouchure is more flexible single lip, my sound is richer, warmer, fatter on clarinet with double lip
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Author: Ted
Date: 2006-11-12 14:51
I also use double lip on clarinet and bass clarinet, but single lip on saxophones. It seems to work well on the two different instruments. I studied with Dave Weber many years ago and he was a proponent of the double lip emboucher. He also had the most beautiful sound I've ever heard. And not just on legato playing. The tone of his articulation was amazing. All the tongued notes sounded like raindrops, full of tone and expression. I don't hear this style of playing much anymore and it's a great loss IMHO.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-11-12 16:02
Yes to both. Single for higher notes or when the lip gets tired. In general I equate putting my teeth on the mp with fingernails on the blackboard or tongue on pump handle in winter. I guess sax players who put their teeth on metal mps use patches? A general observation is that when I put my top teeth on the mp the vibrations that progress to my skull bone structure start my sinuses acting up...and I sound different to myself. I suppose the kids dont' relate to pump handles...
Bob Draznik
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Author: Adrian
Date: 2006-11-12 19:13
I started out with Dave Weber, so double lip was all I learned. When I try playing single lip, it feels like half of my throat is closed off.
No question, it takes years of long tones to build the muscles for a DL embouchure, but in the process--as Ralph McLane is quoted as saying--you get the added benefit of having a beautiful tone.
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-11-12 20:38
Try reading Tom Ridenour's Educator's Guide to the Clarinet.....he's really for the DLE and explains many positive attributes to it. I actually did a research paper for my English class last year on the stance that double lip is superior to single lip because it supports proper fundementals of playing in a more natural manner. If you ever want to read it sometime, let me know.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-11-12 21:06
Clarinetgirl06 wrote:
> I actually did a research paper for my
> English class last year on the stance that double lip is
> superior to single lip because it supports proper fundementals
> of playing in a more natural manner.
Everyone has their own axe to grind. If double or single lip works best for the player in question, then that's what they should use. There have been wonderful players of both of these basic types of embouchures, as well as outstanding players with the reed on top!
An embouchure isn't "natural" to begin with - I sure as heck wasn't born with a gob of hard rubber in my mouth ... though there are those that wish I would have been born that way ...
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-11-12 21:21
I play double lip like my teacher, (Iggy Gennusa) and his teachers, (Ralph McClean, and Daniel Bonade). I think it has to most potential to be the most non-obtrusive style of embouchure going. By non-obtrusive, I mean, it interferes with the reeds vibration the least.
Most clarinetists don’t sound as good as they could, not because they don’t posses a $550 mouthpiece made from reproduction chedeville rubber, or because they don’t have a bell or barrel cut from a 200 year old cocobolo tree. Clarinetist sound bad, because they inhibit the reed from vibrating. Most have bought into the mis-conception of embouchure. You cannot get a clarinet reed to vibrate with your embouchure. Only in the presence of pressurize air with the reed move. You can however stop the reed from vibrating with embouchure, by using too much pressure and doing it in the wrong spot.
Follow me on this:
A. Turn the mouthpiece sideways and look at the opening of the reed and mouthpiece curve.
B. Take your thumb and press the reed closed at the tip. Notice the ease at which you can accomplish this
C. Start moving your thumb down the reed applying the same pressure. Notice when you get close to the point where the reed leaves the mouthpiece table, it’s really hard to close the reed off at the tip.
D. If your bottom lip is on the tip side of the fulcrum point, where the reed leaves the mouthpiece, you are stifling the reed’s vibration. Most likely you are using a mouthpiece that’s more open than it needs to be or you are using a reed that’s too hard also.
The vicious circle starts: closing the reed off, playing sharp, getting a harder reed, one that’s not really well balanced, and using even more pressure to get it to work.
So in my opinion the first thing you need to do is start putting enough mouthpiece in your mouth. The more mouthpiece you take in, the less negative effect the embouchure can have. Take a look in Larry Guy’s book; in that photo Robert Marcellus has a lot of Kaspar shoved down his pie hole! Iggy put a lot of mouthpiece in his mouth, he had a very thin lower lip and it didn’t look like a lot, but if saw his reed it was.
So why double lip? It doesn’t really touch the reed. First off the list of absolutely great players who used it is the list of emulated players from the last century: Wright, Bonade, Gennusa, McClean. With the exception of Marcellus, who told my in a lesson in 1979 that if he could use it he would, and since that’s how I play that I should keep on using it. He also said that he rolled his top lip under, infront of his top teeth to get the benefit of opening up the oral cavity. That hits on what I feel is the main advantage of double lip. It drastically alters the oral cavity; it opens it up a lot. I can hear the difference when I record stuff using single and double. Secondly, both lips wrapped around the mouthpice is symmetrical, you get a really nice feel for the amount of pressure being used in the creation of your sound. But even Iggy’s beautifully formed double embouchure couldn’t vibrate the reed without air!
So here are a few double lip double lip fallacies.
1. You can’t play standing up with it. False, I play all day with double lip, on klezmer gigs and concerts I stand and play sometime over an hour continually.
2. You don’t have the stamina with double lip. My guess is, if you’re biting and not putting enough mouthpiece your mouth you don’t have a lot of stamina anyway. But you will be more aware of the fatigue with double lip. I will say this anything that you can do with single lip to screw up a sound; you can also learn to do with double lip.
3. Switching to double lip will screw up my technique. Well if you switch to double you become very aware of how much finger pressure you use and tension that is generated through your hands. And yes, if you’re using lots of this you will have to hit Baerman 3 and rethink your technique.
I use double lip with any student that comes to me for their first lessons. I get them put a good deal of mouthpiece in. I have them wrap both lips over their teeth and just blow. The results are fast, the kids sound good and it doesn’t take months. They get a good sound by page 5 of Rubank. That is until some stupid band director tells them that it’s wrong and fixes it until they sound bad.
If anyone give double lip a try for one month, I seriously doubt they will ever switch back. That being said, I don’t use it on bass Clarinet or Saxophone. I go with the Marcellus idea of rolling the top lip under in front of the teeth. The amount of mouthpiece that I use playing bass clarinet makes using it a little un-wieldy. But on basset horn and soprano sax I use double. It doesn’t matter what single reed mouthpiece goes in your mouth, you got to let the reed vibrate on it.
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with The Atonement, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-11-12 21:46
Tom Puwalski wrote:
> I play double lip like my teacher, (Iggy Gennusa) and his
> teachers, (Ralph McClean, and Daniel Bonade). I think it has to
> most potential to be the most non-obtrusive style of embouchure
> going. By non-obtrusive, I mean, it interferes with the reeds
> vibration the least.
But we don't really know, do we? You learned from a chain of great "double-lippers". It's like religion - people tend to belong to the same religion as their parents, because that's what they're taught. It's not right - and it's not wrong. It is ...
Giving a different style an honest chance is a good thing and can lead to improved playing, and I agree with your taking that stance in general principal, but saying essentially "this way is the salvation of all that is good in playing" isn't something I can agree with. There are just too many counterexamples of good playing using other embouchures.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-11-13 09:35
> Does anyone out there perform with BOTH styles?
Yes... I've oscillated between the two and discovered the absolute best is with the teeth touching the mpc with the lightest of pressures, just for positioning. You can lift off then temporarily for ultimate smoothness or if the tuning suddenly needs some severe tweaking.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-11-13 16:24
Yes....that's another advantage of double lip.....you will become a better osculator.
Bob Draznik
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2006-11-13 16:28
The first time I heared about double lipping was on this board.
I've been checking since then, but here in Belgium it seems to be not done.
OK I don't know all players ofcource, but I know a few pro's 'in the circuit' and they all seem to confim.
Sofar I couldn't figure out why.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-11-13 16:29
I've used double lip for years. I agree it improves the tone and really cuts down on pain in the front teeth. It didn't take me very long to get used to using this style. I never adapted very well to biting a mouthpiece when I was a youngster and began using double lip before it was acceptable with teachers. My last professor finally validated double lip with his own playing and agreed with me that it works much better for some players.
Certainly cuts down on mouthpiece marks.
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2006-11-13 16:33
Funny thing, all this embouchure talk. No seems to realize that we can only describe embouchure mechanics in terms of what we ourselves are doing. The plain fact is that every one who plays the instrument has a different denture and facial configuration. Sure there are common factors but the specifics vary greatly. So for anyone to say that single or double lip is "better" automatically begs the question, better for who?
Yes double lip works better for me but I would never claim that it is therefore the answer for all. Some players with short upper lips, for example, cannot play double lip successfully even if they wanted to. Does this mean they cannot learn to play the clarinet and produce a beautiful tone -- whatever "beautiful" might mean? Of course not.
The great double lip players are great for other reasons than their embouchures. And there are I would imagine just as many wonderful single lip players: Larry Combs, Ricardo Morales, David Shifrin, Julian Bliss, Tony Pay, Bela Kovacs ... it's a long, long list.
My preferred embouchure is double lip and I would advise anyone who is curious to give it a try. I stop short, however, in claiming that it is the answer to all your problems.
Sincerely
Post Edited (2006-11-13 16:38)
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-11-13 21:43
Clarinetgirl06 wrote:
> I actually did a research paper for my
> English class last year on the stance that double lip is
> superior to single lip because it supports proper fundementals
> of playing in a more natural manner.
Everyone has their own axe to grind. If double or single lip works best for the player in question, then that's what they should use. There have been wonderful players of both of these basic types of embouchures, as well as outstanding players with the reed on top!
An embouchure isn't "natural" to begin with - I sure as heck wasn't born with a gob of hard rubber in my mouth ... though there are those that wish I would have been born that way ...
I personally play SINGLE LIP but will use double lip every once and awhile, especially to help me single lip (which I talk about in the paper) I simply talked about my paper because it discusses many advantages of double lip, which the original poster was talking about. I have no axe to grind, I was trying to be informative/helpful.
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Author: YoungFlarinet
Date: 2006-11-13 23:18
At first I thought this meant the embouchure that I use, but now I realize what is really meant. I only use single lip because double lip is actually quite painful to me.
The way I play is a double over my lower lip outward to stabalize the sound. My friend calls it a "French embouchure", but I have yet to see anyone else play like this. My director has recently gotten very upset at me doing this so I have been switching back and forth from traditional to my style to get used to playing how he wants me to, but I still love my way better.
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2006-12-06 02:21
YoungFlarinet wrote:
> At first I thought this meant the embouchure that I use, but
> now I realize what is really meant. I only use single lip
> because double lip is actually quite painful to me.
> The way I play is a double over my lower lip outward to
> stabalize the sound. My friend calls it a "French embouchure",
> but I have yet to see anyone else play like this. My director
> has recently gotten very upset at me doing this so I have been
> switching back and forth from traditional to my style to get
> used to playing how he wants me to, but I still love my way
> better.
I know what you're saying. The girl who sits next to me doesn't roll her lip onto her teeth. She basically sits and sticks the mouthpiece in her mouth. She has an R13 and a nice mouthpiece but her sound is still airy. She also says it's uncomfortable for her to play with her bottom lip rolled up. I can't stand playing without my bottom lip rolled. If I don't, it feels like my mouthpiece is slipping off. I do you single lip though because that's how I was taught. I have been experimenting with double lip to see you my sound differs, right now, I sound bad maybe because I'm not used to it.
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Author: msausville
Date: 2006-12-06 03:53
Concept, air, reed,
Concept, reed, air,
Air, concept, reed,
Air, reed, concept,
Reed, air, concept,
Reed, concept, air......
repeat indefinitely....
M.
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Author: Caco185
Date: 2006-12-06 04:14
This is an extremely stupid question... but what exactly is a "double lip" embouchure.
Dale Huggard
Clarinet Performance Major, Michigan
Buffet R-13 - Silver plated
Genussa Excellente
Spriggs Floating Rail Ligature
Vandoren V12 #4
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Author: pewd
Date: 2006-12-06 04:20
most of us play with the top teeth firmly on the top of the mouthpiece
in double lip, we have our top lip covering the top teeth, the lip contacts the top of the mouthpiece instead of the teeth.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2006-12-06 06:12
BobD......wash your mouth out............before osculation.
BobT
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-12-06 06:27
How can someone just say double lip is better and make a better tone? I play only single lip and I don't claim it is better. All my favorite players use only single lip (afaik) and this doesn't make it better either, but it does show that it is impossible to state something like that as a fact, because it isn't.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-07 05:32
I have tried Double lip as an excersise, but have trouble producing the Altissimo above high G. I have also tried using a mouthpiece patch that is made of a very soft leather- it had a great sound (a lot like DLE), but I stopped using it when I found out that in the production it was treated with and contained heavy metals. A sad end to a good thing.
=(
Sky
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