 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ajay
Date: 2006-10-31 17:59
(EDIT 14/12/06: If you are looking for pictures of the barrel I have made, they are at the bottom of this page!)
Hi,
My £16 (shipped) ebay clarinet has just arrived. Having looked around on the net I know that the bulk of metal clarinets are said to be not very good, but for some reason I felt I should get one cheap and restore it. As I said, it is made by 'Kohlert', and is dated as 28 january 1954. I have attached some pictures of it. There is some stamped text on the back just above the bell which I could not get a picture of. It reads:
SPEC. SERV. PROP.
28 JAN. 1954
Naturally I have a few questions. Firstly, does anyone know what the abbreviations above mean? My best guess was special service property, but that doesn't seem to make sense. And with the date, is this the date of manufacture?
Also, I would like to know how much is it worth? I thought I got it for about a fair price. The tarnish on the clarinet is quite heavy, I find it looks quite nice. I feel if it took 50 years to get that worn it would be a shame to spend less minutes cleaning it.
My final question is that the bottom C key is bent. How best should I fix this? Is the metal it is made of malleable enough to just hammer it straight?
If anyone can tell me anything else about the clarinet or company it would be a great help. At the moment it is a complete enigma to me!
Post Edited (2006-12-14 17:16)
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-10-31 18:18
The "spec. serv. prop." stamp could very well actually mean Special Services, as in Army Special Services. The Army has a Special Services Branch that provides entertainment for the troops and which maintains on virtually every Army post a number of recreation centers, teen clubs, hobby shops, and other facilities for the entertainment of the soldiers and their families. Some of these recreational facilities often have musical instruments among their equipment (often donated to the rec center by departing soldiers). The other military branches also have similar recreational facilities, however I don't know if they call the folks that run them Special Services Personnel or some other name.
So that could very well have formerly belonged to a military soldiers' recreational facility at one time and that is the source of the stamp.
Eu
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-10-31 18:27
I had one of these, had high hopes for it (as I'm a big Kohlert fan), gave it a meticulous restoration, and was very disappointed with the results. Mine had lousy intonation (irreparably sharp in the upper clarion and altissimo) and had a small sound. Sold mine for peanuts -- about what it was worth.
The bent key can be simply bent back -- use smooth-jawed pliers and work slowly and carefully. This is not pot-metal -- it won't snap unless you bend it quickly or too far.
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Author: Ajay
Date: 2006-10-31 18:48
Thanks for the replies. I like the thought that the instrument has an interesting history, even if the resulting sound is not so great!
The clarinet did not come with a barrel. I plan to make my own on a lathe, but I need to know what length to make it. Should I simply make it so the mouthpiece joins straight onto the bore, or is it designed to have a longer barrel? I thought I would have to experiment with this, but if someone has even very rough ideas of measurements that would be of great help.
While talking about barrel design, I have made very little on a lathe, and never attempted a clarinet part. So should I make the barrel with a straight bore or, as I vaguely recall reading, with a tapered bore?
Also, I plan to repad the clarinet myself; if the sound is unlikely to be good anyway it is a good instrument for my first attempt. I have read guides on how to repad a clarinet, are there any tips specific to metal clarinets? Despite having no experience, I will be very careful and hope by the end of the job to have a playable, if not terribly good, instrument.
Thanks again
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-10-31 19:10
Winnenden stamped on the bell would seem to indicate the horn was made there....which was/is Germany , so Eu's comment could be accurate due to U.S. involvement at that time. My metal clarinets have one piece metal mouthpiece holder /barrel parts which have much thinner walls than wood barrels. Might be a tough job for you.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ajay
Date: 2006-10-31 19:29
I agree, making a barrel will no doubt be a challenge, but despite my inexperience I have a very good teacher who has made baroque flutes. I hope that due to the musical nature of the project he will be happy to give me some help. I found a picture, I think from an ebay auction, of a mouthpiece holder like the one that has been described. I think with some guidance I could probably make a piece that performed the same function. It would seem this impulse purchase could turn out to be a fairly major project!
I will compare the metal clarinet to my wooden one to get a rough idea of length. Looking at the design of the metal clarinet, the barrel can be made with a some extra length, and slid down the clarinet as far as necessary to play in tune, as there is no shoulder in the body after the neck cork. (that's a really bad explanation of what I mean, it might be easier to look at the very first picture I posted)
Seeing as the making of a barrel is already looking like such hard work, if I am able to even attempt it, it will be with a straight bore.
Again, thanks for the replies.
Post Edited (2006-10-31 19:31)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-10-31 19:31
I believe Kohlert was in Winnenden from approximately 1949-1950 to the late 60's/very early 70's when the company finally went under. I'd guess that there were not many metal clarinets still being built by 1950 -- so perhaps if the US military wanted metal clarinets, the Kohlerts might have been among the few available new at that time. Plus, they were selling quite a few instruments in the US around then. Caveat: I'm just speculating.
By the way, my mediocre metal Kohlert was an older model, labelled "V. Kohlert Sons", from their Graslitz, Czechoslovakia period. The newer "Winnenden" model may well be a better instrument.
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Author: Ajay
Date: 2006-10-31 19:38
Another reply even as I type my own! This forum really has been a help to me, and my first post was only about two hours ago! I hope you are right on both counts. I would love to be playing an instrument that was played fifty years ago by a soldier so many miles away. I doubt I could polish it now, knowing what it might have been through to pick up that tarnish.
It would be great to finish the repadding and have a lovely instrument, but I won't get my hopes up. The keywork, despite being tatty and worn, seems mostly ok, so maybe there is a chance.
I've just been looking at the instrument again, in a tiny patch on one of the key posts the plating has completely chipped away, and the underlying metal is of golden colour, so I would guess the instrument is made of brass?
Post Edited (2006-10-31 19:39)
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2006-11-01 01:15
The top of your clarinet (photo from posting/editing at 19:31) looks like the top of the barrel of the metal clarinet I have.
I haven't played mine in a while; am hoping to "lose" it somewhere cause it's from my former father-in-law!
Katrina
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2006-11-01 01:25
You want the barrel bore to be the same as the instrument's bore size, which will be about .580". If it's not close, you will have intonation problems, and the instrument probably won't be in tune with itself. You don't want to try taper boring. It would be a real pain if you aren't an experienced machinest. MSC Supply sells reamers in .001" size steps, and you can order from them on the internet. Make your barrel from thich wall 1/2" brass pipe (probably also available from MSC) and you'll have plenty of metal to work with. Make the barrel length so that the distance from the center of the F/C hole (left index finger hole) to the mouthpiece joint line is 7.05". That's the distance on my wooden Bb Winnenden Kohlert (which use to be Dave S's). Should be an interesting project. Good luck!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-11-01 01:41
I'd suggest that you contact Jim Lande, our BBoard metals collector-expert for more info. My "Bettoney" metal cl's barrel is about 2 3/4" long and I should think that a woodworker could make a wooden one quite easily to adapt to the body and have a mp socket. Luck, let us know your progress, please. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ajay
Date: 2006-11-01 17:50
I've just done some rough measurements and the idea of a 7.05" gap from the F hole, and the barrel being 2 3/4" long seem to agree. Now I have a rough idea of sizes when I see my teacher tommorow I shall ask him about making it.
I would hope to also finish my current penny whistle project within the next two weeks, and after that I shall begin work on this barrel. I only get to use the tech labs once a week for one and a half hours so work may be slow.
I have drawn up a design on the computer, it uses the rough dimensions provided. The overall length is 70mm, the bore diameter is 15mm, and the upper measurements are taken from my old mouthpiece. The only thing I have drawn which I do not know how to actually make is the radius at the shoulder; the real thing may be different in this respect.
Current dimensions are very inaccurate, but when I am in the tech labs I shall use one of their digital callipers to take measurements.
Post Edited (2006-11-01 17:52)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-11-01 20:45
"The only thing I have drawn which I do not know how to actually make is the radius at the shoulder"
Are you making the mouthpiece socket seperate to the barrel tube, or in one piece? It would be best to make the socket and then solder it onto the tube. The bottom of the socket can either be the same diameter as the outside of the tube (with the tube soldered to the end is flush with the inside base of the socket, or with a flange makng the diameter the same as the bore so it hides the solder joint.
You can do this freehand - mount the socket in the lathe and use a file to radius the shoulder while the piece is turning, then paper it up smooth and polish it on a buffing machine and have it plated.
Look for a bass clarinet or alto clarinet crook as the mouthpiece socket on these is seperate from the tube, and usually has decorative turning at the socket end and where it joins the tube.
The bottom part of the barrel should have a wider diameter of tubing for the socket which is soldered onto the tube - the inside diameter of this tube for the socket is the same diameter as the outside of the clarinet and barrel tube so you don't have a step in the bore where it meets the top of the clarinet, and you can either leave this plain or copy any decorative features found on the clarinet, such as the upper bell ring which can be turned seperately and then soldered onto the socket at either end, and then have it all silver plated. The length of the lower socket can be any length you like - it has to be long enough so if you do pull the barrel out for tuning it shouldn't feel loose or wobble.
But the most important length is from the top of the mouthpiece socket to the base of the barrel tube (where it meets the top of the clarinet) WITHOUT the lower socket fitted. Any soldered joints should have no less than 3mm overlap where they join to make them strong enough to withstand use.
Don't take the barrel bore measurement from your mouthpiece - take it from the bore at the top of the clarinet and leave it this diameter (ie. parallel) for the entire length.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-11-01 20:47)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-11-01 21:40
Ajay,
I know you're looking forward to building a barrel from scratch, but if you get to feeling lazy (or, say, a Significant Other in your life reminds you that you have better ways to spend your free time), then please contact me off-line -- I may have a grungy but serviceable spare barrel I could donate to your cause, for the cost of shipping only.
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Author: Ajay
Date: 2006-11-04 20:15
Thanks David, I've sent an email.
Sorry for the delayed reply; I took the clarinet to the local music shop today to get the repair person's opinion. They said that it was unlikely that the instrument would ever make a good sound, but as it was so cheap it would make an good first instrument to repad, even if it does end up hanging on a wall as an ornament.
With this in mind I plan to repad the clarinet myself. I have a question regarding pad sizes. The repair person said that the pad cups seemed very shallow, and that it was possible modern pads would not fit. I have stripped the instrument down and taken off the old pads. All of the old pads that survived removal intact were roughly 3mm thick, which I believe is the thickness of modern pads. Has anyone repadded a kohlert metal clarinet? If so, what pad thickness did you use? I hope to order the pads some time this weekend if I can establish the pads required.
Thanks
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-11-04 20:46
I did repair a metal clarinet; it was, however, not a Kohlert but a Rauber (of Selmer-Montreux fame). I went and bought an off-the-shelf Pisoni Bb clarinet pad set. Worked.
Unless the new pads are extremely thick it shouldn't matter all that much. The most "extreme" kludge I ever had to use was to make a semicircle shim out of an old postcard and glue it between cup and pad in order to make it close properly. (A slightly oversized portion of shellac/glue should yield the same result.)
Good luck.
--
Ben
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Author: Ajay
Date: 2006-11-05 18:16
Ah, there was a semicircle of card inside one of the pad cups at the bottom of my clarinet, this must be what it is.
How did your metal clarinet play once it was done? Would you say it was a playable instrument?
If anyone else has played a metal clarinet, please could you share you opinions of them and their sound?
Thanks
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-11-05 18:33
> How did your metal clarinet play once it was done?
> Would you say it was a playable instrument?
Played by a pro behind a screen and the audience blindfolded with earmuffs one wouldn't hear a difference.
Seriously, it feels like a (cold) clarinet, it's played like a clarinet, it even sounds like a clarinet - I wouldn't hear a significant difference. I might be able to tell the various instruments apart, but I can't claim to determine which is which.
I don't believe a metal clarinet necessarily sounds worse than any other make; their mixed reputation might come from cheap mass-manufacturing.
If I weren't ashamed of posting an .mp3 of both my wooden, plastic and metal clarinet (the recordings reveal more of my own shortcomings than those of my instruments) I'd make a little contest right away...
One thing: Metal (and most plastics) propagate keywork sound (eg when you let a key slap back into its home position) better than a wood instrument. So be extra careful with dampers - cork might be too stiff; I've used foam rubber instead.
Edit: Here are some pictures of my metal clarinet:
http://www.hochstrasser.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?pagename=Clarinet.SwissArmyClarinet
--
Ben
Post Edited (2006-11-05 18:53)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-11-06 21:05
I have 3 metal clarinets I'm still working on. The one that is playable sounds no different from a wood or plastic clarinet.
Bob Draznik
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2006-11-10 14:21
i did play a four piece metal selmer that was very good,
Also a noblet in silver metal that played extremely well ( very smooth , even in all registers ) and another noblet that was rather out-of-tune in some places .
Anyway , they are just a bit smaller then wooden clarinets , so when you have thick fingers or large hands , it can be a bit to difficult to play relaxed
gr
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-11-10 16:04
I have a silver-plated Penzel-Mueller "Artist Model" metal clarinet, played it in orchestra one rehearsal, nobody knew the difference except the folks within visual range who could SEE it was 'non-standard'.
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Author: Ajay
Date: 2006-12-14 17:14
Sorry for the extremely long delay, but I have finally finished the first version of my barrel! In the end it only took me two weeks to make, but my previous project, a penny whistle, took a lot longer than expected. Using this new barrel, the clarinet plays perfectly in tune in the altissimo and middle register, but the bottom register from middle C downwards is unmanageably sharp. Could someone suggest why this is? I find the black plastic looks out of place, I hope the next version will be metal, and considerably more streamlined.
Anyway, here are a couple of pictures:
Post Edited (2006-12-14 17:24)
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2006-12-15 06:03
if the lower register is sharp, you might have to fill the tone hole with epoxy to lower the pitch. but if you do so, it will dampen the sound of the note at the same time, unless meticulously sanded. how'd you create the custom barrel? using a cnc machine?
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Ajay
Date: 2006-12-15 13:41
I used a manual lathe, not a CNC. The drawings posted earlier were just made to see what it would look roughly like.
Would filling toneholes affect only the lower register?
Is it possible that the problems are barrel related, rather than the clarinet itself?
I hope I can remedy this problem, as if I can, I think the tone is good enough to replace my old buffet B12 as a cheap backup instrument.
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