 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jez
Date: 2006-10-29 23:51
http://mpingo.tih.co.tz/conservation.html
I wonder if the big clarinet manufacturers have any policy towards conservation of the basic resource of our craft, obviously the Buffet 'Greenline' is a move in the right direction, but they must use more wood than any, as I guess that they are the biggest maker. The others make no mention, as far as I know, of environmental issues.
jez
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-10-30 05:52
Artists and sports people usually give a hoot about the environment (at least in my experience), except when PR is involved. How many of you in here know what FSC stands for?
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Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-10-30 20:42
"mpingo" is ithe name of grenadilla (blackwood) timber in its homeland.
If you Google search on this word, then you will find quite a bit of activity is in action on sustainability.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-10-30 21:07
Gordon wrote:
> If you Google search on this word, then you will find quite a
> bit of activity is in action on sustainability.
Activity alone isn't enough, especially if done by a couble of freaky tree-huggers (to use a comparatively mild term).
A quick check among the well-known manufacturers' web sites indicates no inclination (or even awareness) whatsoever towards sustainable wood harvesting. FWIW I can find financial information easily - stock quotes are more interesting than commitments.
That greenline might save the one or other tree is - IMHO - just a welcome (and maybe even unplanned) by-benefit, but not the driving force behind developing that material.
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Ben
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-10-31 06:42
Actually, using techniques for the greenline could extend for more than 1 or 2 trees. If you think about how many lousy wooden clarinets there's gotta be in just about every attic in america, it would be easy to recycle them by reducing them to powder and making a composite out of them. For that matter, since the composite probably doesn't retain the complete properties of the base wood, why use mpingo at all...any dense wood (or other material, like recycled dense plastic or even newspaper) should suffice if you paint it black (with all due respect to the Stones).
I think the problem you run in to here in terms of awareness is that for most of us a wooden clarinet is a life-long purchase, and for one-time purchases a lot of don't think about environmental impact (though perhaps we should). The shame is that it would be easy to apply conservation techniques to instruments. All but professional quality instruments could be made of alternative materials (like plastic or rubber). Old instruments should be refurbished and reused...my Buffet is older than I am and is still a professional quality instrument. The materials field abounds in recycled material that might apply well to instrument manufacture if we can somehow divorce ourselves from needing to have a rare African stick in our hands. Such a move could even benefit instrument makers by reducing materials cost and increasing profit margin.
In short, the instrument makers give us what we want because that's what we'll buy. If we change what we want they'll change what they make. Any volunteers (besides me)?
-Randy
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-10-31 08:19
> Any volunteers (besides me)?
<raises hand>
Additionally, there's a lot of local timber that can't be sold because of competition and all that.
I understand the body joints are critical because of all the keywork and such, but the barrels and bells have no supporting function (in the same way an upper or lower joint does), so...
I vote for having joints made of composite with bells and barrels made of whatever type of hardwood is available - pear, cherry, walnut, maple, box...
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Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-10-31 09:22
Tictactux wrote, "Activity alone isn't enough, especially if done by a couple of freaky tree-huggers"
Have you looked at those sites from the Google search? I think the activity is a lot more than what you describe.
BTW, why bother even trying to recycle the grenadila as Greenline. Why not get over the timber thing altogether, and get a really appropriate plastic formulated, and use the same care with production as with a good timber instrument. Surely the only reason for the Greenline concept is to sell what is essentially a polymer clarinet, which the wood-crazed and players can pretend is close to being timber, and which the tree-huggers can accept as a step forward.
And BTW, why are clarinets not made from the "engineering plastic" , Acetyl. It machines beautifully. Very strong. Rigid.....
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-10-31 10:32
Not to make a gross simplification...but it was my understanding that until the Greenline no company had really attempted to make a synthetic clarinet with the care & specifications of a wooden clarinet.
Specifically, the undercutting/fraising of the tone holes.
So I'm not certain we really know if wood is required to make a beautiful sounding horn (Please don't flame me Vytass!).
YES, every horn I own is a wooden one.
I also recall the high opinion Bill Brannen has of the Greenline clarinets once they have been through his shop.
All long as we're philosophizing over composite clarinets, and someone has suggested using ANY wood in the process...why not reed cane? Specifically the reeds I've already blown through this year?!?
If only they could all be improved by chopping them into a fine polymer clarinet....
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-10-31 11:33
Gordon,
I didn't mean to belittle the efforts made by a lot of people. I only think that those whom these efforts may concern simply don't know that there is a potential problem at all. It took Max Havelaar the better part of twenty years to reach a moderate market share for fair trade products...it took the furniture industry the better part of twenty years to promote FSC wood. I wonder how long it takes the music instrument industry to promote sustainable wood chopping.
Do you have a picture or an example of a thingy that's made of acetyl? (I only know acetylsalicylic acid...)
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Ben
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-10-31 14:32
I'll be blunt. I think every one of you is missing the point.
If you move the clarinet industry away from grenadilla, then grenadilla ceases to have economic value. Then the local people have no reason to preserve the trees. If it happens to suit them, they'll cut every one of those trees down in order to use the land for something productive.
The trick is to manage supply and demand. Maintain the demand, but encourage people to maintain the supply in a sustainable way. Encourage them to harvest only fully-grown trees, and to plant trees to replace those they harvest.
The same argument applies to all sorts of natural resources. If you forbid big-game hunting, lions become a dangerous nuisance to be exterminated. Allow hunting, and they become a valuable resource to be managed and protected.
You may find this argument morally reprehensible, but then you aren't starving Africans.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-10-31 15:07
David,
that would be a valid point if those starving Africans owned the trees and lions and whatelse in the first place. This is, unfortunately, not the case.
You are right with encouraging thing - however, this would mean to pay better than the competition. Unless this (support of sustainability) is something of value for a manufacturer, the bean counters there will reject every idea that adds to cost. Unless the pressure comes from the other end of the food chain - the customers - nothing will ever happen.
The gist of the discussion above was - as I see it - steer away from the current way of using scarce wood for instruments. Whether the alternative is "fair trade" or "new technology" is up to us.
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Ben
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-10-31 15:55
Ben, no, you are continuing to miss the point. On grenadilla, read the link jez provided. On lions - well, nobody owns the lions. If people do not see them as of economic benefit, they kill them. They don't say, "These lions belong to the government / the National Lion Corporation, we must put up with them."
See, for example, http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/X4110e/X4110E05.htm, from the UN Food and Agriculture Organization.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-10-31 16:26
David,
you're postulating a perfect society where wealth is distributed and information is sufficient, and where there is a fair and transparent marketplace. If that society does indeed exist, then I agree with you.
I fear, however, that people won't profit from those economical benefits, they stay poor whether they plant new trees or not. As long as buyer monopolies are allowed (usually a company gets the exclusive rights for a whole area) there's no competition and thus no incentive to act better than your competitor.
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Ben
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2006-10-31 18:19
I think David is on the mark here! The wood used in clarinet production is of great value and of course being able to use the resource wisely will keep the price down...as to other instruments flutists tend to be far more picky as to make ...headjoint....metal...keywork....pad style over clarinet players any day!!
David Dow
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-10-31 20:16
There SEEMS to be a lot happening that is good AND effective.
Spend an hour reading through the many links.
http://www.blackwoodconservation.org/
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