 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-10-26 21:42
I sometimes throw brickbats at what manufacturers do, even 'top' ones.
So it's time for a bouquet.
I have just been checking over an ex-factory Selmer "Privilege" Bass Clarinet.
Bass clarinets, because of the flexing of the metal of the larger keys, have design issues that barely exist in smaller instruments. The way that manufacturers address these issues has often been poor. However in this new Selmer model I was pleasantly surprised and impressed. It was clear that somebody in the design team was well aware of the issues and had taken successful steps to address them.
Only two things disappointed me:
1. The continued use of the same nylon adjusting screws. The threads are a firm fit, and even with the ideal screw driver, the force needed to turn the screws is enough to risk wreck the slot of the screw. Nylon-tipped metal screws would be well worth the small extra cost of manufacture.
2. I had reason to take off the lowest pad. It had a thick partial shim behind it, which was responsible for the pad leaking across a diameter. And the glue used for the pad had a consistency closer to slime than any glue I have seen before, and had quite a low melting point. I wonder that it is rigid enough, and stable enough in a warmer environment.
Note that this is not a report on the way the instrument plays. I leave that to the experts. But the low notes sounded great, and thanks to the design of the mechanism, would sound easily no matter whether a single pinky (or thumb) was used, or a two-digit fingering was used. This is often not the case for a bass clarinet.
But why is the mounting hole in the spike's rubber ball far too large for the spike, with three screws used to centre the spike in that large hole?
Post Edited (2006-10-31 01:08)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-26 22:15
Is it a Wolf end pin? I know on my Buffet they have a special shaped end to the floor peg so it fits the Wolf end pin, but is Selmer's one just the standard floor spike unaltered to fit the end pin?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-10-26 23:37
Selmer is on to something with the Privilege bass key design. The key cups are mounted on short stalks attached at a 90 degree angle to rotating rods mounted on tip pins. This avoids the problems inherent in cups mounted at the ends of long rods (e.g., the trill keys on other designs).
From looking at and holding the instrument (I haven't had a chance to play one), they have eliminated most of the flexing and general rubberiness that afflicts other basses. Also, the tone holes look larger than average. They may have put them further down the instrument. It certainly feels like a bigger instrument than the Buffet.
I've heard good and bad things about its playing qualities compared with the Buffet. It's certainly loud.
If you don't like the ball for the floor peg, it's easy to drill a hole in a Super Ball to fit the end of the peg. The Super Ball material has a very high coefficient of friction, so it never slips. Just don't bounce the instrument on it ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) . Seriously, there's no quicker way to throw a bass out of adjustment.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-10-27 00:48
"Is it a Wolf end pin? I know on my Buffet they have a special shaped end to the floor peg so it fits the Wolf end pin, but is Selmer's one just the standard floor spike unaltered to fit the end pin?"
I am not familiar with a "Wolf pin". The end unit is a polymer ball, integral with a metal tube with tightening thumb screw, and two other screws, spaced at 120 degrees. The ID of this tube is about 4 mm larger than the diameter of the end of the clarinet's supporting spike - an extremely sloppy fit. Hence, I suppose, the extra two screws. I just don't understand why Selmer didn't get this item made with the correct size hole, to fit the spike provided.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-10-27 02:28
I too have tried this instrument when the Selmer tour came through town last spring or summer, and I was much less than impressed. I have always preferred Selmer basses in the past, but this is one that I would not own.
I had some troubles with the instrument as far as playability was concerned, but I give that to the company, feeling that my mouthpiece/reed combination might not have been suitable. It played well enough, but either the horn was not set up right (not likely in a demo horn, I would think) or it just wasn't as good as my old 1970's horn.
What bothered me most was the "heft" of the instrument, and I attributed that to the substantial extra weight added to the upper joint by the trill key axles, along with the peg used with the instrument. The second could be changed, but the first you are stuck with. Personally, I've seldom had troubles with trill keys on basses (and I use the "side Bb option" in my playing a lot), as long as one is careful with the horn when assembling or disassembling.
With this horn, I felt for the first time in a long time the need to wear a neck strap. As I don't like them with the bass, that alone might be enough to put me off of it.
Remember, if you cut me open, you're likely to find "Selmer" engraved on my heart. So, for me to pass so strongly on a Selmer instrument is pretty extreme - and an indication of just how much I disliked it.
The workmanship issues (the pad attachment problem) concerns me, although I saw no such problems with the instrument I played.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-10-27 07:02
I've played the Selmer Privilege, three of them actualy (two low C and one low Eb instruments). I've also played an older Selmer (model before 35 I assume), and I've also played two model 37 and one model 35 Selmers.
At least for me, the keywork of the Privilege model is a HUGE improvement (especially comfort-wise) compared with their former models. But, it is still very uncomfortable, for me, comparing with my Buffet. The Privilege looks a lot like they left a lot of the 37 in it, but changed and added a lot to resemble the Buffet.
It plays great, a lot like the 37 in sound (almost similar but better imho). I notice a big difference between the Selmer and Buffet sounds. Surprisingly most players that I like play Selmer and I like their sound a lot, but I just like the Buffet sound for myself better.
The main thing I don't like about the Privilege keywork, and it was a problem with the 37 also, is the keywork on the right side of the right hand keys (rings). When I play I can't avoid touching this mechanism with my palm, but on the Buffet I don't feel it at all. Maybe I am used to play at a certain hand angle that doesn't work good with the Selmer.
Some other keywork issues like uncomfortable pinky keys (mainly on the left side) and very uncomfortable throat notes keys (mostly G# but also A) are greatly improved with the Privilege.
About the peg, the new peg Buffet now using is MUCH better than the older one they used until a few years ago, or the one Selmer is using now. It has no screws at all. When I had the peg with three screws they keps opening and make noise. The peg shown on Buffet's website, or any other new official picture I've seen shows the older peg.
I've been playing the new Buffet model for about 8 years (if I remember correct). About the trill keys on the Buffet, which are just longer and bigger Bb clarinet type keys, I've never had a poblem with them. About the weight of the Privilege, that also would not be a problem for me because I use a peg for sitting or standing.
I am not sure what "flexing and general rubberiness" Ken is talking about, but trying to imagine what he meant, I didn't feel a differece with the Buffet in that way. About it feeling like a bigger instrument than the Buffet, I also feel it is the opposite. Especially the Selmer 35/37, but also the Privilege, feel like people with smaller hands will like them better than the Buffet. It feels overall like you are holding something smaller.
Gordon
I'll be interested to know what are the steps you mean that helped the regular problems of bass clarinets?
About 1 - Are the adjusting screws you are talking about the ones above the low pads?
About 2 - I recently took all the pads off a clarinet, and two of the pads which obviously were changed at some point had a very strange glue. Maybe it is the same as you saw on the Privilege. It wasn't liquid at all when hot, and when soft had a texture and colour a lot like milk jam (not sure if that's how you call it in English).
Also, if you want, I can take a picture of the new peg with no screws.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-10-30 22:52
Nitai...
"About the peg, the new peg Buffet now using is MUCH better than the older one they used until a few years ago, or the one Selmer is using now. It has no screws at all. When I had the peg with three screws they keys opening and make noise...."
Can you accurately measure the diameter of the Buffet peg for me. My customer may want to buy one of the Buffet ends instead of a "Selmer 'Wolf' one", which fits the Selmer spike so poorly. (These ends were seemingly made for cello.)
Is the new Buffet spike end permanently attached to the spike? Yes, I would like a picture.
If you have trouble with the other two screws loosening, it could easily be dealt with with a thread-locking liquid such as "Loctite", say "242" formulation.
Alternatively, it would be quite easy to turn a brass sleeve to take up the gap in this spike socket, and do away with the two extra screws.
"I'll be interested to know what are the steps you mean that helped the regular problems of bass clarinets?"
This is rather complicated to explain without both of us looking at the instrument together. The issue of significant flexing, ie temporary twisting, of those long rods of the large keys, when linkages are involved. Steps need to be taken with the design so that where the flexing is significant, it does not interfere with how one key closes relative to another, which should close at the same time.
Another aspect of this issue is that ideally, where two or more pads should close together:
1. The pads should contact the tone holes at the same time.
2. When some more force is applied with the finger, that added force should distribute to both (or all) pads that are involved, so that they close with equal pressure.
In reality, these two ideals are mutually exclusive because of flexing of metal, springiness of silencing materials in linkages, and slight 'play' in the pivots. Good design minimises the compromises between the two.
This is a major issue when adjusting linkages for any of the larger instruments. For many bass clarinet, the lowest few notes cannot be easily playes without using TWO pinky fingers.... Either that, or pads do not close nicely together for the higher low notes, say E/B when only a single finger is used. Poor linkage design can make these problems more or less unresolvable.
"About 1 - Are the adjusting screws you are talking about the ones above the low pads?"
Yes. Thbey are involved with linkages all over the instrument. The older Selmer basses had much larger diameter screws, made from metal, with cork glued to the tips. The new nylon (?) screws obviously cost almost nothing to make, but have the problems I explained, expensive in time, for a technician to try to deal with.
"About 2 - I recently took all the pads off a clarinet, and two of the pads which obviously were changed at some point had a very strange glue...."
There are many "strange" glues used by various technicians, manufacturers, and DIY guys. For many years LeBlanc used a glue that resembled something like cheese, with about the same sticking power!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-31 14:51
"Is the new Buffet spike end permanently attached to the spike? Yes, I would like a picture."
The new Buffet floor protector is permanently fixed to the spike, the last one I saw had what looked like 'weight-saving' hollows in the upper hemisphere around where the spike goes in. It looks very much like the Wolf one, but without the metal socket and securing screws.
The previous spike that the Wolf Endpin fits onto has a specially shaped end which is flat at the bottom and has a turned recess for the locking screws to locate into, and a collar at the top end which acts as a stop so the screws will always locate in the turned recess.
The Buffet floor peg/spike is 7mm diameter steel.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-10-31 16:40
"If you have trouble with the other two screws loosening, it could easily be dealt with with a thread-locking liquid such as "Loctite", say "242" formulation."
I found Loctite website (strange they list my country under Europe) and I'll look into that, though it is not a problem because I don't have the peg with screws anymore. Good to know for future.
"Can you accurately measure the diameter of the Buffet peg for me."
Depends on how accurately. I have a caliper that measures only up to 0.1mm and with it looks like it's 7mm.
"Is the new Buffet spike end permanently attached to the spike? Yes, I would like a picture."
Yes, and I attached a picture. Actually two pictures. The second one also shows a home-made long peg. It is actually easy to make and shouldn't be too expensive at all (was free for me so have no idea on how much it would cost). The pictures aren't great, so if you need better ones I can take more.
If your customer might be interested in making a peg, my home-made (or actually Kibutz-a-couple-of-hours-away-made) peg is 8mm for the longer part, and then 7mm for the top 10cm or so. We made it this way because it is so long. For a shorter peg it can just be 7mm (or whatever is best for the Selmer) all the way. I don't think it even has to be very accurate. It feels (on the Buffet) that a tiny bit over 7mm would be ok. My home-made peg feels just a tiny bit wider than the original (maybe 7.05mm?) and work just as good. For the end I just used a hard rubber thing I bought (about 10 cents?). Maybe it is plastic that resemble rubber, doesn't matter. I put some of what we call Isolirband on the end to make a slightly tighter fit to the peg.
"The older Selmer basses had much larger diameter screws, made from metal, with cork glued to the tips."
The Buffet has larger ones with some rubber type thing glued at the end (not cork). Good that I checked, because I also checked for leaks while I'm at it and found some. Should I even expect a (low C) bass clarinet to seal tight with a light touch for all the low notes? I don't really notice any problems when I play (but maybe I'll notice improvements when I fix the leaks?).
"For many years LeBlanc used a glue that resembled something like cheese, with about the same sticking power!"
Didn't you mean stinking power? 
Post Edited (2006-10-31 16:48)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-10-31 20:32
Thanks, Clarnibass. 7 mm diameter makes it the same as what Selmer are using. I wonder why they use this diameter. It is a rather unorthodox size for steel or stainless steel (because threads that diameter are not standard), and brass is arguably too likely to buckle and bend. I could buy 8 mm or 5/16" (7.94 mm) off the shelf from steel supply specialists, but not 7 mm.
Your stepped-diameter shaft is a good idea to reduce buckle. I could try that on my lathe (using a travelling steady) on stainless steel next time, but in the mean time, I have drilled a hole in a very cheap, super-bouncy-kid's-ball, and superglued the customer's 7 mm brass rod into it. Good quality superglue (alpha-cyanoacrylate)sticks well to this "rubber".
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-11-02 07:09
"the customer's 7 mm brass rod"
The Selmer peg is made of brass?! The Buffet one is (stainless) steel. The one I made also stainless steel.
By the way, it is not exactly stepped, but gradually becomes smaller (much better this way). By reduce buckle did you mean the peg is moving a little? Actually I don't put the clarinet directly on the "step" because then it would be too short (if I have no shoes that is about the right place). Not only you'd have to do it super-accurate for the right height for the specific person to be exactly on the "step" but also the player will want a tiny bit of adjustment possible, not to mention playing with different shoes sometimes, etc. Too many reasons not to build it accurate like that.
The bouncy ball is a cool idea!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-11-02 07:32
clarnibass wrote:
> I found Loctite website (strange they list my country under Europe)
It isn't? Then why is your country allowed to participate in the European Song Contest? ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-11-02 08:01
"It isn't? Then why is your country allowed to participate in the European Song Contest?"
Maybe because we have bad enough singers to participate?
It is also allowed in the Eurpean football and basketball championships (and most other sports too). Still doesn't make it Europe. It is in Asia.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-11-02 12:20
Reply to Clarnibass:
"'the customer's 7 mm brass rod'
The Selmer peg is made of brass?! The Buffet one is (stainless) steel. The one I made also stainless steel. "
No. The original Selmer one is probably plated steel. My customer found this too short, so she bought a length of 7 mm brass.
By the way, it is not exactly stepped, but gradually becomes smaller (much better this way). By reduce buckle did you mean the peg is moving a little? "
No, I did mean buckle. The longer &/or thinner a column (i.e. in a building) or a rod is the more likely it is to buckle under axial compression.
The readiness to buckle can be calculated.
http://www.engineering.wright.edu/~jslater/SDTCOutreachWebsite/column_buckle.htm
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckling
So the more slender the spike is, the more inclined it is to buckle. Therefore, if the spike is fairly long, i.e. especially for playing while standing, it is a good idea to make it thicker for the length that does not need to fit through the clamping device.
"Actually I don't put the clarinet directly on the "step" because then it would be too short....."
I envisaged not sitting the clamp on the step, but making the thinner part of the spike long enough for adjustment for any player, using the clamp.
I guess it is best to have the normal spike for sitting, and a longer, thicker (except for the adjustment part) one, for standing. This seems to be what you have done.
".....Too many reasons not to build it accurate like that."
That's not what I was thinking of. I hope that is clearer now. :-)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-11-03 12:13
Yes it is clearer, and I could have saved you all this explaination by finding out what buckle means myself..... and yes it is one of the reasons we made it thicker except the top part.
".....This seems to be what you have done."
Yes.
"My customer found this too short"
The original peg too short when sitting? Is she unusually tall? I've seen many people much taller than me have no problem with the original peg so I'm just curious why it's too short for her.
"so she bought a length of 7 mm brass."
Since I'm not too knowledgable about how strong brass is, are you sure it is strong enough for a peg? For a long peg (like mine) I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be strong enough....? Maybe fine for a short one?
Thanks.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-11-03 12:21
clarnibass wrote:
> Since I'm not too knowledgable about how strong brass is, are
> you sure it is strong enough for a peg? For a long peg (like
> mine) I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be strong enough....? Maybe
> fine for a short one?
Depends on the actual alloy. But I wouldn't take a solid rod, I'd take a tube/pipe, they are a lot stiffer and stronger.
--
Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-11-03 23:11
Clearness wrote:
"The original peg too short when sitting? Is she unusually tall? I've seen many people much taller than me have no problem with the original peg so I'm just curious why it's too short for her."
I think she must be standing - for non-orchestral performance.
"Since I'm not too knowledgeable about how strong brass is, are you sure it is strong enough for a peg? For a long peg (like mine) I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be strong enough....? Maybe fine for a short one?"
Brass and steel are variable, but steel is roughly 3 times stronger than brass.
I have serious doubts whether 7 mm brass is strong enough for a long peg. I even have serious doubts that thicker brass, with a thinned section for adjustment is strong enough. Hence the discussion on using thicker material, or a stronger material.
Post Edited (2006-11-03 23:11)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-11-03 23:19
Ben wrote, "Depends on the actual alloy. But I wouldn't take a solid rod, I'd take a tube/pipe, they are a lot stiffer and stronger."
That is not strictly true. Yes, a tube is stronger and stiffer FOR ITS WEIGHT.
However strength of a rod when bent, is proportional to the diameter cubed.
For a tube, the strength is proportional to (OD cubed - ID cubed), which is less than just OD cubed.
Yes, it might be a nice idea to have a larger diameter, lighter peg that is still strong and rigid, but that introduces the issues of clamping without crushing, and bulkiness, aesthetics, fixture of a rubber end, not to mention price.
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