 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-10-25 08:57
Attachment: PA250002.JPG (1096k)
I bought this old V Kohlert on the internet and was struck by the unusual keyworks for the left hand. As you can see from the photo it has three rings like a Full Boehm instrument but is articulated differently. The ring for the 1st finger moves independently and carries the pad above it; the 3rd finger ring also moves independently and closes the pad between the 1st and 2nd fingers. The 2nd finger ring closes the little pad attached to its edge and also picks up the 3rd ring and closes its associated pad. You can also see that the register key wraps around to the top on the barrel as in an Albert system clarinet. Also you can see that the lower section has the arm to connect it with the upper, but the upper has no provision for this connection. In spite of this the keys on both the upper and lower are very much of the same design and I believe they are at the very least the same manufacture and period. The instrument is marked "V Kohlert Sons"
in and arch then "Makers" and then "Grasliz" and then very faintly "Czechisovocia" and finally "Bb". The upper main section is marked very faintly "LP" and "Bb". The bell also has the 7 medallion logo of the old V Kohlert instruments. The whole instrument feels smaller and more delicate than more modern ones. The barrel that came with it is very short (58mm) and takes a mouthpiece with a smaller than modern tenon. I don't believe it is original, in that the istrument play just 15 cents or so flat with one of my 67mm barrels. It also came with a "Boston Wonder" wooden mouthpiece that is in good shape actually plays pretty well.
Anyway, the point of all this is I would like more information on this key system and perhaps some sense of the possible fingerings.
Thank you
J B Lansing
Post Edited (2006-10-25 09:33)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-10-25 09:29
Great closeup. Stay tuned for experts.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-25 09:40
That's a version of the LH forked Eb mechanism that enables you to play Eb (or Bb) as xox|ooo.
Looks similar to the one I added to my plastic Yamaha, except on this one the adjustment and the bridge to join the link with the E vent goes beneath the finger ring arm - on mine it goes above the mechanism close to the trill touches. The steel shaft is pinned to ring 3 and the E vent, but ring 2 and the link can move independantly on this shaft, so the adjustment screw ensures the vent soldered to ring 2 closes with the E vent. I ought to post a photo of mine on here, only I haven't got a camera or know how to post pics.
The long Bb link appears to be broken off, but it's not a difficult thing to have made and fitted.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-10-25 09:50
Thanks for your reply Chris. Not sure I follow all of your description. The Bb arm is fine, it is just resting on the rug and being held open.
Thanks again
J B
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Author: DH818
Date: 2006-10-25 10:43
"Also you can see that the lower section has the arm to connect it with the upper, but the upper has no provision for this connection."
If you'll look closely, I think you'll find where the upper bridge key has broken off.
Donald C Hinson
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-25 10:46
The bevel for the connecting arm (bridge key) is still soldered to the barrel by the lowest pillar on the top joint, so there should be some evidence the bridge key has been snapped off.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-10-25 12:36)
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2006-10-25 12:26
I have your Kohlert’s twin (serial numbered in the 8000 range). Mine plays quite well. It was probably a professional instrument in its day. Using a 66mm B&H barrel (the original is long gone) the clarion register is surprisingly well in tune, although the twelfths are consistently 10 to 15 cents wide. Tone is very dark, especially in the low register. With a Grabner mouthpiece it verges on stuffy. With brighter mouthpieces it has a warm, mellow tone. My wife even comments on how good it sounds. I play this one in the local community band at least once a month.
The connecting bridge arm between the upper and lower rings is missing on yours. This is very easy to break off since it doesn’t have the wings and ramps of later keywork. When sliding the joints together you have to press the top rings down and be sure the bottom rings are not pressed. Otherwise the top and bottom arms hit. If you insist on pushing the joints together this way, one will break. Without the connection, the traditional forked Eb/Bb won’t work, xoo|xoo.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-25 12:41
I do like the design of the forked Bb mechanism on this clarinet - I might copy this design next time I make one of these, but it depends on how much room there is.
If anyone lives in West Sussex and can visit me to take some pictures of my forked Bb conversion to post on here, I'd be very grateful.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-10-25 13:32
What a fine-detailed pic of a nice old Kohlert Boehm [with forked Eb/Bb], I'd guess it was made in the 1910's, having the "tuning" small pad for the fork, with adjusting screw, but no adj. sc. on the G#-A keys! and "wrap-around reg. key. I have a similar V K, an A [perhaps 1920-30] presently loaned to an advancing [orch-playing] student, can post its ser. # later. Dave S is well acquainted with Koh's and others, perhaps he can comment, also. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-10-25 13:36
That upper joint design is very common on clarinets of the 1900-1930s era. I've seen it on Buffets, Penzel-Muellers, Kohlerts, JTLs, etc. etc.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-10-25 14:05
"I'd guess it was made in the 1910's,"....
More likely after the end of WWI when Czechoslovakia came into existence.
Bob Draznik
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-10-25 14:34
Attachment: PA250004.JPG (1066k)
I had all the keys off to clean and re-pad, and could see no evidence of a mounting point for the bridge arm. I suppose it could have been file off rather than fixed. I had a typo concerning the barrel, it is 50.8mm. For a High Pitch or Eb?? It does have a rather nice sound. I can't speak to the intonation as I don't have a 65 or 66mm barrel.
Does anyone know any thing about a wooden "Boston Wonder Mouthpiece?
J b
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-10-25 15:10
Attachment: MissingBridge.jpg (85k)
B...b...but there it is! The mounting point is at the end of the rod that holds the third finger's ring, right near the pillar. That bulge there isn't mere decoration.
--
Ben
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-10-25 15:20
B...b...but there it is!
But! When I take it apart, That bulge continues smoothly around the part. Someone did a very good job of cleaning it up.
J B
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-25 15:34
Yep, they've left the remainder of the long Bb link on the barrel right by the pillar, but it should be possible to either make a new link or cannibalise a part from a donor clarinet that closely matches what may have been there, and once silver soldered on and cleaned up you can have it nickel plated to match the rest of the clarinet - but only apply about 10 microns maximum of nickel as it's hard to fraise the barrel if the nickel plating is too thick - the barrel fraise will just skate on the nickel.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2006-10-25 18:06
For what it's worth, mine was broken there too, but the old piece was rattling around in the case (which was probably the original case). It was easy to resolder. As for the date, there is a long, detailed thread about dating old Bohemia/Czecho-slovakia/Czechoslovakia Kohlerts. The consensus was that this one is from ~1919 to 1921.
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-10-25 21:49
I went back and looked yet again and there is a flat where an arm could be attached. It is very clean, but the metal is fairly soft so it probably cleaned up easily. I will look in my parts bin to see if i can find an arm. I got this thing with the thought it could be a project, so I get my wish. I been playing it a bit more and it really isn't too bad. Nice tone
J B
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-10-26 02:59
> *** The instrument is marked "V Kohlert Sons" *** <
V. Kohlert "LP era" instruments had logo on their mouthpieces, Upper-Joint and the Bell. Your instrument does not resemble Kohlert clarinet of that period at all.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
ClarinetHeaven@aol.com
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-10-26 12:45
The only Kohlert identification is on the bell. The marking on the upper section are so faint the light has to be a an angle to see anything at all. You said "Your instrument does not resemble Kohlert clarinet of that period at all".
Do you mean the key work? Or the lack of markings?
J B
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