 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ben
Date: 2006-10-12 16:41
I think it's really interesting how much an orchestra can change in 20 years! If you compare a couple of DVDs of the Berlin Phil, Von Karajan conducting La Mer, Prelude/Faun, and Daphnis et Chloe from around the mid 80's I think, to Simon Rattle conducting Mahler Symphony V very recently, there's a huge contrast. It seems as though it's a completely different orchestra! I wonder what the turnover rate was, pretty high I'd bet. There's definitely a lot more women in the orchestra now (a third, perhaps), vs. none before. Also, the older recording everyone barely moved in their chairs the whole concert while the more recent one had lots of movement, like a big chamber music group. The more recent DVD was fantastic, while the earlier one was okay.
Is it normal for an orchestra to change so much in 20 years? I know Greg Smith is on here sometimes, so I wonder how he feels things have changed since he started in the CSO?
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2006-10-12 18:13
Karajan and Berlin Phil were definitely not at their best playing french impressionist music. I think if you had seen him conduct Mahler 5 and compare it to the Rattle recording you may have a different opinion.
But yes things have changed and conductors do have big influences on the sound of the orchestra they conduct.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-10-13 01:47
The last years of the Karajan tenure were marked by a schism between him and the orchestra caused by his insistance on having Sabina Meyer in the orchestra. The Berlin Philharmonic is self governing and they wanted nothing to do with the modern idea of gender integration (at the time). So, besides the orchestra being pissed, Karajan was also just about at the end of his life much of his body overcome with arthritis.
There are also several different types of video recordings of Berlin. One Karajan approach is highly choreographed, all the instruments (section to section that is) held at EXACTLY the same height/angle in a very stilted manner versus some of the live recordings in which the group moves as one organism (as described above alla chamber group). Even through a single conductor's tenure you will find vast differences in interpretation from one period to another.
And even though it's only one opinion, I tend to disagree with the premise that Berlin (this period in question or any other for that matter) was not able to render French music properly - they always played with a great musical vision.
And finally, I must add that Simon Rattle is one of the most gifted of today's conductors. He certainly has HIS own vision which manifests itself in the sound he gets out of the highly responsive Berlin Philharmonic.
...............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2006-10-13 01:49)
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Author: Kai
Date: 2006-10-13 02:36
The change of personnel in Rattle's BPO and Karajan's BPO has been quite drastic between the 2 eras I think, just by judging the faces I see on their various DVDs. Was it in an interview (the one that came with the Mahler 5 DVD?) that Rattle mentioned that when he took over the BPO in 2002, most of the Orchestra musicians ere younger than him. Rattle was only 47 then. (He first guest-conducted them as a youthful conductor in the mid 80s)
On top of that, the BPO now also employs quite a few international players (including a British Principal Oboe, a British horn player, a Japanese Principal Viola, a new American (?) Principal Viola). Seeing that Karajan's death was only less than 20 years ago, the number of female musicians has certainly soared including female principals. The I am guessing that there must have been a huge 'Human resource' shake-up since Abbado took up his post. Still, something about the BPO's intensity when playing always remained, regardless of which conductor. As Bernard Haitink puts it, "When the Berlin Philharmonic plays, they are fighting for their lives, there is so much intensity!"
I am not sure about Karajan and BPO not being at their best doing French Impressionistic works but their version of La Mer, together with Rattle's version and incidentally, Abbado's version (but with the Lucerne Festival Orchestra) remains my top 3 La Mer choices. Karajan's La Mer is so different from the other 2 needless to say but I think provides an equally valid interpretation.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2006-10-13 19:00
The Berlin Phil also has a Canadian french hornist as well.. Fergus McWilliams....
I would also add that I think Karajan in French music is very good....certainly he sticks to very steady tempi and avoids overblown phrasing better than some french conductors.
I find the Berlin sound today a little bland depending on the who is conducting however, so I would honestly say who is conducting this orchestra makes a much greater difference than say 20 years ago.
I will also add that most orchestras have extremely high turnover rates...and very high burn-out problems among staff.
David Dow
Post Edited (2006-10-13 19:02)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-10-14 13:41
The turnover/burnout rate is a MUCH bigger factor outside the US. Here we have a little thing courtesy of the Musician's Union called tenure. Of course some of the older, less consistant players do wind up bowing out before things get too bad.....usually.
........Paul Aviles
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2006-10-16 20:24
During Abbado's tenure, he had to replace 75% of the orchestra from the orchestra you see in 1985. Mandatory retirement is 60 years old and a lot of players left shortly after Abbado took over.
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