 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: myrnabs
Date: 2006-10-07 21:05
What type of sound does the Cocobolo produce? I know they look beautiful. I see that Leblanc has one on the website that uses the Backun bell and barrel. It looks nice. Which one produces a better sound, pitch etc. the Black grenadellia or the cocobolo. I haven't tried any yet, but in February I'm going to TMEA, and I plan to try them all out.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-07 21:10
Cocobolo is less dense than kingwood and grenadilla - not sure how it differs on clarinets compared to blackwood, but on oboes d'amour and cors anglais it does yeild a more vibrant and resonant tone, and it is lighter in weight.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: myrnabs
Date: 2006-10-07 21:24
Mr. Chris P
Wow did u already post a picture of your oboe? I would love to see it. I just think that cocobolo looks extremely elegant.
Thank u for the info ;-)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-10-08 01:26
I get this question alot. Both woods (Cocobolo and Kingswood) are a joy to machine on the lathe. Coco. burnishes easier.
Oddly, the "sound" of cocobolo can vary considerably from one barrel to another. I have made coco. barrels that I would characterize as very resonant. Others are more earthy or deeper in sound color....and that is with the same taper, size, and shape of the barrel.
Overall, I think coco. tends (bell-shaped curve applies) to add a certain emphasis to the fundemental, but the spectral display looks similar to rosewood.
True Rosewood (Bolivian, Honduras, etc) tends to impart some brightness.
Kingswood, although related to RW tends to be of a darker, softer tone. It has been embraced by oboists (Yamaha has a pro model, and other companies make a special order). It is not, however, shy when it comes to projecting.
Both need to be warmed up by playing before checking the tuner. Neither is as stable as mpingo in the face of changes in humidity or temperature.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-08 13:56
Having tried some cocobolo Howarth XL oboes, I was surprisingly disappointed in them as they didn't project and felt very stuffy, even though they were set up exactly the same as their blackwood counterparts. Maybe if I spend more time with a cocobolo instrument it should free up over time - but these are brand new ones so they do need to be played in.
I felt my 11-year old kingwood S5 plays much better than these, though I have played this same oboe for the last seven years. And to be honest, I haven't found anything to better it.
But the XL oboe d'amore and cor in cocobolo do take some beating - I thought my Marigaux cor was a force to be reckoned with, but the cocobolo XL cor is proving to be a temptation!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-10-08 14:03
I've been using cocobolo barrels on my Leblanc horns lately, and I am absolutely in love with them. There is a very noticeable difference (to MY ears) in the ease of projection and an overall "smoothness" to my sound that I thought I had before, but I notice it more now, and many things are easier to do on my horn. (breaks are smoother, leaps are easier, altissimo blends with the rest of the horn better)
I mostly believe it's due to the bore configuration, though, and I don't personally believe that the material of the barrel makes any difference...it's just extremely pleasing to look at, and makes me want to practice all the time.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-10-08 14:28
It's your expectation that makes difference.
If you think it'll have beautiful tone,then it will.
If you don't think it won't ,then it won't.
Have you try plastic bells or other grenadilla bells?
You will hear all different sounds,but it has nothing to do with cocobolo-ness.
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-10-08 14:36
my previous primary barrel was a Robert Scott made out of delrin(plastic). It sounded just as lovely...this just looks better.
I completely agree that the material doesn't really have a noticeable affect on the tone quality...it is simply more aesthetically pleasing to me, and I don't mind admitting that that is the primary reason I choose to use equipment fashioned from exotic woods.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-10-08 14:47
You'll note the continued interest in the old Conn "propeller wood" clarinets from the past. While there may be some who seek some elusive quality of tone by trying such things, the main draw there is the spectacular appearance of the things. And, even the most dedicated of clarinet quality seekers would concede that they do look spectacular.
I'm not above appreciating the appearance of fine wood (or marble, or sandstone, or even burnished metal). However, the main thing about a clarinet (or an oboe, even) is how it sounds and works. To be absolutely frank, the appearance of the instrument is pretty secondary beyond that.
What I would like to see is a test on a side by side basis with the various woods used for clarinets. Run up twenty horns, or barrels, or bells, all of different woods but all made to an identical design, then run them through a double blind testing procedure. Rate them from a sound aspect, and also rate them from a player's perspective. Then, let's talk about how much benefit we are going to derive from the exotic materials.
All too much of what we "instrumentalists" worry about has never been put to a objective test with extraneous variables controlled and/or eliminated. Stop speculating about how much effect the original lacquer has on the tone of a Mark VI. Instead, take two (or more) Mark VIs from the same run, strip one of them through chemical means, carefully relacquer the thing, set them both up professionally, and only then blind test them with the same player, same mouthpiece, and with the player wearing gloves and a blindfold. Then you'd be able to make that assertions that all of that fithy, flaking finish was worth keeping. (Any guesses as to which side of this argument I'm on?)
The truth is that we don't do this sort of thing because a) this sort of stuff is not on the same plane with those things for which we normally choose to call in scientific analysis, and b) it would also be very costly (to regulate two (or, ideally, far more than two) horns, after totally rebuilding one (some) of them), either for the saxes or for the clarinets (all of that machining of the various woods (one hesitates to call it "wood turning")).
Now, don't think that I'm downing those who go this route. I am quite capable of appreciating fine industrial or artistic design. I've always liked looking at a well-fashioned machine, from a Huelett loader to a Haynes flute and everything in between. (Will, maybe not Leblanc clarinets - I've never liked that square, "jump key" stuff on the upper joint.) And, I've always felt that, if you want to spend the money for something in the way of a new barrel or bell because you like the way it looks, then (in the words of Shakespeare) "Go to!".
But, as far as saying that it makes all the difference in the world to the tone or feel from your perspective alone - well, that's an opinion that is largely unsupported by independent, controlled examination. Nothing wrong there, but certainly only an argument "from the man" rather than from data developed from absolute based, rigorous testing.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-10-08 16:50
"What type of sound does the Cocobolo produce?"
It depends. If you hit it (like a drum) it will sound in a certain way, depending on the shape/material of the wood and what you hit it with. If it is an instrument made of cocobolo, then it will it sound like the instrument that it is...... It will sound different the same as any two clarinets do, but sound better? That's up to the player who tries the specific instrument to decide. Pitch is not affected at all by the material as far as I know.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-08 17:25
Strange thing is that I finished a couple of S55 oboes in cocobolo and they were very easy and free-blowing (like a Rigoutat Riec) compared to the grenadilla ones, though the cocobolo XL oboes I tried were very resistant.
Though none were unpleasant to play - just different.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jack
Date: 2006-10-09 04:16
Myrnabs,
Your thread opener question implies that Leblanc has a cocobolo clarinet for sale. Of course, I'm sure that you were only referring to the Backun barrels and/or bells. Lots of luck finding a cocobolo clarinet. The only one I have ever seen is my Rossi french bore cocobolo. In case you want to know what I think about it, I would say that it takes less physical effort to play than anything else I have tried, so you can think more of the music and much less of the technical aspect. The notes just pop out the way you want them to. But I suppose that this has everything to do with the manufacture and very little to do with the type of wood. It's certainly the most beautiful clarinet I have ever seen and the one I most enjoy playing. I also have a Backun cocobolo Bass Clarinet Bell on my Buffet 1193. The improvement in the sound is so huge that the only way to understand it, is to hear it. The groups I play in always express disappointment when I don't bother to bring it along. By the way, it is beautifully crafted.
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-10-09 04:22
Actually, it's my understanding that Rossi offers clarinets in grenadilla and *rosewood*, not cocobolo, although perhaps he has done special orders in cocobolo that I'm not aware of.
Orsi & Weir also offer their Varese clarinet fully made in cocobolo wood, as does Prof. Romeo Orsi, which gives the cocobolo option on any of their clarinets.
While not cocobolo, Patricola offers their pro clarinets in rosewood, which is in the same Dalbergia family; and Yamaha and Howarth offer a kingwood option on their clarinets, Hanson offers rosewood, and Stephen Fox of course makes instruments in cocobolo.
So, I don't think she needs "luck" in finding a cocobolo clarinet, just the funds to acquire one.
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Author: Merlin
Date: 2006-10-09 04:33
(Disclaimer - I work for a dealer that sells Orsi & Weir clarinets)
The necessary funds to purchase a cocobolo clarinet are not necessarily prohibitive. The Orsi & Weir cocobolo clarinet sells for less than a nickel plated R-13 does here.
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Author: myrnabs
Date: 2006-10-09 04:57
Mr. Williams,
Thank you very much for clarifying the funds aspect. Upon reading my question Correctly funds were never a question. I have no idea why anyone would think that I have no funds?? hahahaha!!! I merely was asking about sounds. But all in all, I think that I should give it a test drive. Which reminds me, how well are the Orsi and Weir? I remember playing those at a convention, and they were awesome, but they were just not ready for selling. I didn't know that they were made availabe already. I'm going to check those out on ur website. Once again thank you so much for your well received information/knowledge.
With Great Respect,
Myrnabs
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Author: jack
Date: 2006-10-09 15:06
DressedToKill,
My Rossi is cocobolo. He's not offfering them presently because he can't seem to get the quality of wood he's looking for. As you say, he is offering rosewood.
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-10-09 15:32
Give it another year, Merlin, and a used BMW will be less than a nickel-plated R13 ;-)
Now that I think on it, Jack, I do recall that when he first started making clarinets, Rossi *did* offer cocobolo. Must be a stunningly beautiful horn!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-09 17:40
I do like working on cocobolo as it's waxy (in comparison to grenadilla) in that it cuts nicely when cutting tonehole bedplaces.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: nickma
Date: 2006-10-09 19:25
I've tried both Grabner and Backun barrels in Cocobolo, and have a Backun bell in the same. I find there is a liquory smoothness to the sound with these. Initially the Backun barrel felt a little stuffy, but it has opened out beautifully with playing time.
The bell is wonderfully rich and seems to add consistency and power across the range. There are days I still prefer the stock Buffet barrel, just depends on things I don't understand I guess: me, the weather, the light....
Nick
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