 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bartmann
Date: 2006-10-06 14:34
I was talking to my friend (a post-masters degree in clarinet performance major) about tuning a clarinet with piano. His first off-the-cuff remark was: "Oh the clarinet always sounds wierd when tuning to a piano."
I often play duets with a colleague who has a Bösendorfer Imperial piano. When I tune with a flute indeed the tuning sounds exact and the resonance from the unison notes build off on another. Yet when I transition to the clarinet, there does seem to be something missing in the tuning: the unisons are not as resonant.
Yet as the ensemble grows to include other instruments, the unison notes do indeed become more resonant.
Remember that I only realized the difference in the quality of tuning after playing flute/piano duets and then immediately playing the clarinet.
Has anyone experienced this?
Bartmann
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-10-06 14:41
I'm not sure I follow what you mean.
But is it possible that the difference is related to the use of vibrato on the flute but not on the clarinet? Have you tried playing the flute senza vibrato to see whether it still sounds as resonant?
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Bartmann
Date: 2006-10-06 20:08
David,
We did tune the flute to the piano senza vibrato. And certainly vibrato on the tonic fills out the unison.
What I'm referring to is the sonic character difference between tuning the clarinet and the flute to the piano.
Bartman
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-10-06 20:12
Could the difference be in the harmonics generated by a clarinet vs those of a flute?
Alternatively, Bosendorfers have been known to attack Clarinets ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-10-07 00:00
Many paino tuner tune pianos very high. (i..e., much higher than 440)
Also there is stretch factor on pianos which means higher note is higher and low notes are lower than mathematically correct pitch.
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Author: FDF
Date: 2006-10-07 00:47
Every time my piano was tuned it was done with a tuning fork at 440 hz.
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Author: kenb
Date: 2006-10-07 01:16
"Bosendorfers have been known to attack Clarinets"
Ugly temperament?
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-10-07 12:41
I know three piano tuners, and each questions "just" tuning...
most pianos seem puposely spread; flat in the left hand and progressively sharp in the right hand,
Also, given the predominance of odd numbered harmonics from a clarinet,
I wonder if you note the missing even harmonics?
Perhaps it comes down to a sophisticated player with good ear training.
May I suggest having a third person listen from some distance away lending an ear for verification of pitch?
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-10-07 18:14
Perhaps your clarinet is out of tune in that area? I work regularly with my pianist and have no problems whatsoever. Tuning to a flute is really not the best idea, if you have a problem get a good tuning machine. Seriously consider that your instrument is not quite right or the piano your tuning to in completely out of tune. You don't live in Europe so it's not a that silly high pitch.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: rgames
Date: 2006-10-07 21:12
The obvious explanation lies in the fact that the piano is tempered, so it's not even in tune with itself. You can't play perfectly in tune with a piano playing more than one note at a time because those notes are slightly out of tune with each other. So which one do you tune to?
When you play with winds and strings they all use their ears to adjust to fit the harmonic structure and keep everything in tune (in theory!). So when you play a G in a Cmaj chord you play one pitch but the G in an Emin chord is played at a slightly different pitch.
If you tune the piano to make the C-G perfect fifth in tune then the E-G min third will be badly out of tune and vice versa (so just change the E, right? well - then the E is out of tune to the C, etc. - you can see where that leads). Therefore, modern pianos are tuned so that no one combination of notes is badly out of tune but, alas, all are slightly off. This technique is what is known as temperament and has been a topic of discussion among music theorists as far back as Pythagoras (pick up a great short book called "Temperament" by Stuart Isacoff for an interesting discussion).
**WARNING** Geek speak follows:
You can prove that this must be the case because, beginning on any note, the octave above must be at a pitch of exactly twice the frequency but the fifth above is at a ratio of 1.5 to one. So let's say you go through the cycle of fifths starting on C, you'll eventually end up on B# seven octaves higher at a frequency of 1.5^12 ~ 129.7 times your original frequency. But if you start on the C and take the octaves you'll end up at a frequency ratio of 2^7 = 128, about 1.4% lower in pitch than the B# you got through the cycle of fifths. So the two notes are, in fact, slightly different pitches depending on whether they are to be tuned as octaves or fifths (a phenomenon referred to as the Pythagorean Comma).
This same argument holds true for any of the intervals: because the octave is an integer multiplier to the frequency of the original note, and because all other intervals are non-integer multipliers, the fact that no power of a non-integer can be an integer requires that the same inconsistencies will hold for all intervals.
QED!
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-10-09 12:36
Are clarinets truly even-tempered? (I'm thinking wide twelfths etc.) If not even-tempered, then are they built to favour certain keys? (and I don't mean in terms of fingering difficulty!) In which case, there's bound to be a real difference between playing a Bb part on a Bb vs. transposed on an A.
And are pianos indeed 'stretched', so the left is flat and the right sharp? I find that truly staggering. Why on earth is this done?
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2006-10-09 14:51
What are we talking about?
Is the odd tuning/sound you get with the piano just with the tuning notes? or is the odd sound when you're actually playing along with the piano? The equal temperment of the piano might explain the latter.
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2006-10-09 22:08
To add to the confusion, most of the notes on a piano are actually composed of multiple strings.
Assuming that the piano tuner had a wonderful day, and each set of strings was in perfect tune when he finished the tuning job, the instant he is done they start changing. I don't know of any "real" pianos that are guaranteed to stay in tune forever.
Therefore: If you don't see the piano tuner in the room, chances are the piano is out of tune.
Post Edited (2006-10-11 13:23)
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-10-10 02:58
To Bassie:
Stretching is the result of making octaves perfectly in tune.
That is when you playing two adjacent octaves you want it to have minimum
amount of beating or unpleasantness.
Piano strings are very stiff so the harmonics of each string are not the integral multiple of fundamentals. Example: 2 nd harmonic of fundamental is not x2 but like x 2.01 or so and 3 rd harmonic is x3.03 etc.
When you go up higher it becomes more exaggerated.
Clarinet is not equal temperamental or just tonal.
It is a compromises of all things some are in tune others very out of tune
and very different tonal color.
Scale theory is very facsinating.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2006-10-10 07:42
I have noticed that the timbre of the clarinet can sound a bit odd in unison with the piano. Just the way the sounds interact with each other, I suppose. Difficult to explain.
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