 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-09-21 14:38
Liang Wang is the new principal oboe of the New York Philharmonic -- a wonderful young player with lots to say, even to clarinetists.
He was recently interviewed on NPR. See http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6088896, which has links to his playing and a podcast of the interview. He talks in detail about his reedmaking and sound concept -- ideas that are equally applicable to clarinet.
Ken Shaw
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-09-21 17:02
I've learnt a hell of alot from oboists and bassoonists regarding reeds. This is especially helpful when dealing with reeds for the classical instuments.
So anyone who as oboe and bassoon friends don't mock the time they spend adjusting reeds and moaning about them pick their brains and then you won't need to moan that only one reed in the box works, all of them will work with a bit of elbow grease. It'll save loads of money on reeds.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-09-21 17:27
"In fact, he spends about as much time making reeds each day as he does practicing and playing the instrument."
I wonder whether this is typical of professional oboists? It seems an astonishing waste of their valuable time. I can understand that they might want to do final adjustments to their concert reeds, but do they really have to make every reed from raw cane? It seems to me that most of the work could be farmed out to low-cost labour, freeing up the player to spend his time on more lucrative pursuits.
The same surely applies to professional clarinet players. Reeds cost round about £1.50 each. On the basis that you could earn £30 an hour teaching, then I'd suggest that it isn't cost-effective to spend more than 3 minutes working on a recalcitrant reed.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-09-21 17:57
I managed to hear this broadcast the other day, and it echoes everything I've heard from oboist friends about reedmaking.
Oboe reeds in the U.S. tend to cost $10-25 each... decent ones and lousy ones alike (most that are mass-produced are lousy, from everything I've heard). It takes a lot more care and precision to make an oboe reed that sounds even half decent. Clarinet reeds are of much simpler design and can be manufactured with very minimal human interaction. Not so easy to automate oboe reeds.
Most oboists I know are very particular about their reeds, and if they do buy them rather than making them themselves, they will usually buy one that was handmade by another oboist. Anything of lesser quality requires so much adjustment that you might as well make it yourself.
The clarinet is much more tolerant of a less-than-perfect reed than the oboe, in terms of response and tone. An oboe reed directly determines the pitch of the oboe and there is no barrel to push in or pull out to adjust for weirdness. The oboe reed is much smaller, and the two parts must be symmetrical. It's significantly easier to botch an adjustment on an oboe reed.
Imagine, if you will, that all that was available in mass production was picked-over Ricos, available in size #5 or #2, at $15 a pop. You'd be making your reeds by hand or buying some that someone else had made by hand really fast. And if you're buying someone else's, do remember that they probably keep the best for themselves.
They do sell partially-formed blanks, but every step that you don't control yourself is a step that you have no say in the quality of... finding a decent supplier is key.
Quite frankly, low-cost labor is hardly capable of making high-quality oboe reeds. The best you can do for low-cost labor is to find a skilled college student willing to sell his/her extras.
\Full disclosure: GF makes and sells oboe reeds.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-09-21 18:14
It would be very interesting to know how many usable reeds Liang Wang - or any other professional player - makes per year, and how many hours it takes him.
Let me guess..... he is reported to spend about as much time making reeds as playing, so let's say 20 hours per week making reeds. Let's suppose he consumes one reed per week (no idea whether that's right). At that rate, he spends 20 hours per reed. Let's suppose his time is worth $50 an hour (probably a considerable underestimate for such an eminent player).
Then his reeds cost him $1000 each.
No. Makes no sense.
Either he sells a lot of the reeds he makes, or he uses them up at an astonishing rate, or he's a very inefficient reed maker. Does anyone know which?
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-09-21 18:37
Well, this is pure speculation (and a guess as good as anyone else's) - but IMHO the process of "making a reed" isn't just about, well, making a reed.
I can imagine that - while it certainly requires attention - it's an opportunity to free your head from playing, from notes and scores and whatnot. Others go swimming for a change or walk the dog round the block, others watch TV or post to some BBoard, and some more others make reeds. It'd be unfair to weigh in such a recreational process (and I assume it at least partly is) against money. How much time of our days do we spend pampering our instruments? Shouldn't we better hire a pro cleaner and reconditioner instead of shining our keys and oiling our bores ourselves?
Maybe it's just silently understood as "part of the job", part of the compassion, the obsession.
--
Ben
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-09-21 18:46
How oboists handle their reed needs varies madly from player to player.
Most professional oboists make their own reeds.
Some outstanding professional oboists never made their own reeds, but had someone close to them who understood what they wanted and how to make it.
Some oboists fuss for hours and hours over their reeds, and extend the reedmaking process over several days' time.
Other oboists give it a couple of flicks of the knife, and it's a reed. I have watched a very good oboist with whom I was playing sit down and scrape a reed (which she had tied that afternoon) on the spot, and use it for the gig.
Finding a good oboe reed is like kissing frogs to find a prince. It's hard to tell whether a reed is good or not just by looking at it. You have to play it to find out.
There is not always a correlation between price and quality in purchased reeds (talking here only of hand-made reeds; machine made reeds are virtually never as good as hand made reeds). And even a good reedmaker will turn out so-so reeds or absolute duds. Which is why many oboists make their own -- because it is s-o-o-o-o much cheaper, after the initial investment in tools and training, to do it yourself.
Wish I could make them myself!
Susan
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-09-21 19:33
Your estimates are way too pessimistic, David.
The pickiest oboists, I find, will use any given reed for a day or two, and at a leisurely pace will turn out a couple reeds a day (not start to finish... they'll be working on one or more batches of a dozen or so at a time, and they need to sit for a while between steps), some coming up with, say, 5 per day. I want to say I heard Liang say he makes two a day in the interview.
So, even by your numbers, I would put the reed's cost closer to $50-100.
The "how much your time is worth" argument gets kinda screwy too... I've spent a couple grand surfing the internet this month by that logic, and $200 going to bed every night.
Really, though, for many oboists there is no alternative that brings satisfactory results. Again, imagine that the only reeds you can buy are $15 picked-over Rico #2 individual reeds, but you've learned how to make something of the quality of a good V12 or Gonzalez, and one out of every three or so is of the quality of the fabled "BEST REED EVAR!!!!1!!"
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2006-09-21 20:06
Two of my favorite sayings by Tabuteau are:
"A reed per day"
"Take your reeds to the shower with you!!"
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-09-21 20:50
Liang Wang said in the interview that he usually makes two reeds a day, and only one of them is good enough to use in the orchestra.
There are some professional level finished oboe reeds. Katherine Needleman, the principal in Baltimore, sells her not-loud-enough-for-the-orchestra reeds on the Unmentionable Auction Site. They usually go for over $25 each.
Bassoonists, particularly in England, often buy finished reeds. Unlike oboe reeds, though, they can last a long time.
Ken Shaw
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-09-22 02:49
<<Unlike oboe reeds, though, they can last a long time.>>
Actually, some oboe reeds last and last and last. I played in a quintet tonight with a reed that I have been using for about 18 months (NOT 18 months of constant use -- 18 months of rotation). I just read a testimonial on a reedmaker's site today where the writer claimed to have been using a certain one of this maker's reeds for "years".
And I think there was the story about an elderly Leon Goosens doing a solo performance on a reed that he had been using for years, and commenting that he expected it would outlive him.
Then there are the reeds that collapse after one playing. Or worse, in the middle of their first concert.
I guess it's like cut flowers -- some last for weeks; others wilt within the hour.
Susan
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