 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: rgs
Date: 2006-09-19 17:04
Are alto clarinets becoming obsolete in concert bands? If a music score does not contain a Eb Alto Clarinet part then what part do you play? What is the advantages/disadvantages in a single piece body verses the two piece body? Are alto clarinets more difficult to play than the Bb clarinet?
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-09-19 17:14
Not too sure if alto clarinets are becoming obsolete in concert bands. We don't have a player in our band, but there is certainly AC parts in most of the music we play. My guess is that most conductors will not turn down a good AC player willing to play one.
If the music lacks an AC part, then the player presumably could take a rest. Probably the best option rather than trying to play other instruments' parts.
Single piece advantage: easy assembly. Disadvantage: longer case, and presumably that this is a student plastic model, the associated workmanship in general is not as good.
2 piece advantage: presumably better made wooden model will have better workmanship, smaller case maybe. Disadvantage: may require more assembly work and general care.
AC is not more difficult to play than Bb in my opinion, provided that have the necessary physical build for it and treat it seriously.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2006-09-19 17:34
I do play AC in one group. I am surprised at the number of pieces that do have AC part. But I have not seen very many AC players in other groups I have listened to. It does have a bit of a reputation for being the "nerd" of the clarinet family. Obviously those of that opinion have not heard Lincolnshire Posey by Grainger! Great picc/AC duet in one movement. The highlight of my AC career thus far!
When there is no AC part I play along with the thirds as I sit next to them.
I find the big advantage of two part body is smaller case. Since I have to take my Bb as well, smaller is better.
More difficult to play? I would say I find it more difficult to be as agile on my Alto as on my Bb, or A. Sometimes the parts are less demading technically, though that is not always the case. Being a larger instrument it is a little more cantankerous ie. does require more frequent adjustments and therefore becomes less responsive when it gets to the stage where it needs to be "tweaked".
Marcia
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Author: rgs
Date: 2006-09-19 17:59
So when there is not a part you transpose the 3rd Bb clarinet part to fit a Eb Alto Clarinet
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Author: marcia
Date: 2006-09-19 18:15
No I don't transpose the third part to play on my alto, (that would be quite a feat!) I play it on my Bb clarinet. Should have mentioned that I also take my Bb to rehearsal for those very occasions, hence having a smaller AC case is of great importance to me.
Marcia
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Author: William Hughes ★2017
Date: 2006-09-19 18:19
Lots of alto clarinet threads lately...must be verrrrrrry slow out there.
If there is no alto clarinet part, you can cover one of the alto sax parts, baritone sax or any of the bass clef instruments such as trombone, bassoon, tuba, baritone horn, or string bass by using the transportational trick of adding three sharps and reading as if written in the treble clef. There may, of course, be octave issues with the lower parts. They might be better suited to an EEb contra alto clarinet.
In general, once the fingers adapt to the greater spread, I think the alto is easier to play and the harmony parts assigned to it are usually less challenging than the Bb repertoire.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2006-09-19 18:34
Sometimes the alto parts are technically less challenging, BUT the group that I am in is a very accomplished group that plays very difficult music so sometimes the AC parts are very demanding. (However I'm not claiming that I am always up to the mark) Our mandate is to play the "new and unusual". Some of it is very new, ie. hot off the press. Sometimes I wonder if composers write difficult music just to see what the limits are??
Marcia
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2006-09-19 18:57
I do play SOME alto clarinet in the concert bands and there is most always a part but it tends to be something close to the third clarinet part. Whether this is lazy composer or because the composer is worried there'll be ANY alto clarinet to play the part. Generally I play alto when I don't have an Eefer or bass part to play or on the rare occasions of an alto solo. The conductors wold generally have me play either one of these others normally though as the parts tend to be more unique or important. Have even played a few symphony pieces on alto, although in general those were occasions where I had a job and there was an alto part that probably wouldn't have been played otherwise.
I find alto no more difficult than normal Bb, ditto bassett horn, and I like the sound on both maybe a bit better. (My hands are big though so this might be a problem for someone with smaller hands.) Have both Hawkins and Grabner mouthpieces for these horns (and VanDoren 3 reeds), both are Leblanc Paris. For a while there has been a good number of used LeBlancs for sale on that famous web site at quite low prices considering a new onle lists for $7K! Almost wish I had bought mine there rather than a dealer.
Eefer guy
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-09-19 19:07
Marcia and Wm H say it well IMHO. After a bit of recruiting of a competent Bass cl player, I have shifted over to my alto [Selmer-Paris] so as to [hopefully] become as competent on it before advancing old age puts a stop to my comm band and church playing. You may find school band directors and non-cl-playing band conductors "putting-down" the alto for concert band use [it is needed in cl choirs !], but I [also] have found some challenging/important parts in L'Arlesienne, Light Cavalry et al, and some contemporary pieces. Sitting beside the bass cl, when I dont have any part [such as 2nd alto sax, bari sax, even Eb cl{if you like the altissimo !}], I'll sight-trans. the bass [or 3rd cl] part Carefully [or get a computer trans]. It is a "different" inst to play, emb. between Bb and bass, a fine [quite open for me] mp is very helpful for tone quality and volume, IMExperience. Try it, its FUN and rewarding. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Michelle
Date: 2006-09-20 05:56
I just got back from band rehearsal where I am playing alto clarinet and bass clarinet. When I first started in the band I played bass only, but after an impulsive eBay bid, I found myself the proud owner of an old wooden alto clarinet. It played awesome right out of the box and I fell in love right away. After the bloom faded with that alto and it needed more and more repairs I invested in a better alto clarinet, and now I have moved up from just one or two alto parts per concert to four or five in this upcoming concert, depending on which tunes make the cut. If I have no alto part, I switch to bass. Luckily my bass partner is a strong player and he can cover the bass part nicely when I'm honking away on alto.
One interesting and frustrating thing I noticed about my alto is the neck socket for the mpc - it is quite small. I had to sand the cork way down on a vandoren mpc to get it to fit in the socket. I tried to try a Grabner mpc tonight and it wouldn't even fit in the socket. Obviously I couldn't go sanding down his mpc to make it fit but I wonder, why would the socket be so small? The Yamaha 4C fit allright, the Vandoren was very tight and there's no way the Grabner would even begin to fit without major modification.
I intend to email Mr. Grabner and ask him about his mouthpiece sizing but wonder if anyone here has had a similar experience with alto mouthpieces - particularly anyone playing a 60s Buffet alto clarinet.
Thanks.. and thanks for allowing my side-tangent.
Michelle
By the way - I think the alto clarinet has a beautiful range and such a mellow tone, I absolutely adore it. I don't care if it is considered the outcast of the clarinet section ... I love it just as much as my bass now!
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-09-20 14:01
It would be interesting to contrast this alto clarinet love-fest with the number of times that one actually hears the alto clarinet being played in all types of music.
Let's see, we've got clarinet choirs, concert band, the occasional jazz eccentric looking for something different, and maybe twenty pieces for symphonic orchestra written by Englishmen with an eye for the unusual and a set of orchestration books to hand. Other than that...
The alto clarinet suffers from what has been called "vapid" tonal quality, as well as from being a sort of bastard child to the clarinet family. Like the viola, its tonal quality probably suffers from some physical factor (and, yeah, I know about (and have played) both alto clarinets and basset horns - I'm not just shooting from the hip here). It also falls right at the break point where the finger holes (at their actual locations, not at remote locations like with the bass clarinet or the saxophone) can still (if just barely by most hands) be covered by fingers instead of plateau keys, making a special challenge for the small fingered clarinet player trying to cover those vast chimneys.
(Another interesting topic: how many open-holed altos still exist? For some reason, every one that I've had to use over the years has been an open tone hole model. Yet, most that I've seen offered for sale have been closed hole.)
It is odd that the tenor of the family (the bass clarinet) has such a "rich" lower register - one roughly comparable to the octave-higher lower register (and there's a tangle of words for you) of the soprano instrument, while the alto is "windy" and vapid. But, that's physics for you. Perhaps it's time for some clarinet innovator to spend some time working on the alto's bore to come up with something more compelling that what we currently get.
But, more than that, the instrument never has found a place in music. It makes sense to have such an instrument (look at all of the Sax instrument families), and the long standing example of the strings seemed to be an excellent roadmap to follow. But, for whatever reason (tone quality, the economics of numbers of players in a group, the weird, "neither fish nor fowl" appearance of the beast), few have bothered to write for the alto unless compelled to do so by the requirements of contest music grading.
Nevertheless, alto clarinet players will continue to be nominated (one hesitates to say "choose the path") to play the instrument, simply because it is there in the horn room and there are concert band parts for it. Never mind that many such parts are written in the old "peck horn" style and can often be omitted without loss - they'll still be there for the playing. So, some unfortunate in the rear rows of the clarinet section gets the nod, and spends three years playing musical fill while stretching their fingers to cover the not-quite-regularized spacing of the alto's keywork.
For the record, the first cash money I was ever paid for playing music (a really nice dead president plus all of the clarinet and bass clarinet mouthpieces I wanted to take home with me) came from the Selmer Corporation for playing alto clarinet. For that one reason alone, I still have a soft spot (if only a very small, and well concealed, one) for the beast.
But, it's only kept from extinction by school musical groups and eccentrics. Perhaps since we (as a musical society) have made the Eb valved horn (the "peck horn") and the bass sax more or less extinct, it's time to set our sights on the alto clarinet...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Nickphill
Date: 2006-09-20 14:22
I switched to from playing soprano to alto clarinet in January 2006 in the concert band with which I play. When there isn't an alto part (perhaps 10% of the time in our repertoire), then I tend to get given an Eb horn part, or the second alto sax part.
best wishes
Nick
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-09-20 16:34
Terry,
...b...b...but it is ever so cool. So irrational.
Else we'd all play midi files and commute by train or eat optimized dinner rations out of tubes. Why would people want to play didgeridoo or djembe? Because it's different and not everyone else (okay, meanwhile that has changed) does.
I like my Darth Tone.
--
Ben
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Author: marcia
Date: 2006-09-20 17:07
I must confess I do not play the AC because I especially wanted to play that instrument. What I DID want was to be part of PSWE and the only clarinet opening was the Alto chair.
I have learned to like it....most of the time.
Marcia
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-09-20 17:16
Are Great!, quite appropro, the short- and long- of playing AC well explored, IMHO. ? to Ebcl-1, what symphonic pieces could use [stand?] an alto in the cl section? . Having the best AC in town and a tiny bit of influence [retiree], perhaps I could "help" our M D[irector] pick one for Old Don. TKS
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2006-09-20 17:50
Don,
The only alto clarinet parts I've played in the symphony are sort of show tune/ pops concert sort of things and even these are few and far between. One actually had a small solo although that was over 25 years ago. Haven't had one since!
I have done some bassett horn parts on alto when we couldn't find a pair of bassett horns and the alto/ bassett horn didn't blend. Then we both used alto clarinet. Frankly those paired altos sounded better because they project better over the orchestra even though the sound is different than the bassett horn. Although the bassett horn has a bigger range, I actualy prefer the sound on alto. I play LeBlancs on both alto and bassett horn so it's not a brand difference either.
I think the alto versions of most instruments are sort of picked on by composers. Violas are certainly the least solo'ed instrument in the string section. My main instrumentys for public performance are oboe and English horn and you also know the ratio of oboe to English horn solos! Occassionally at least the English horn gets to shine.
Eefer guy
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Author: swkeess
Date: 2006-09-20 18:20
Hi Michelle,
I, too, have a Buffet alto clarinet with a small neck socket. When I bought an alto mouthpiece from Walter Grabner, it also did not fit. Walter was kind enough to fit the mouthpiece for me, but it entailed sending the neck along with the mouthpiece back to him for a custom fit. He did not charge me for the time spent adjusting it, but it did take a few weeks to arrive back (he was very busy at the time). Another alternative if you can't be without the clarinet for that length of time would be to take the mouthpiece and instrument to your local tech. Either way, the mouthpiece is certainly worth the effort!
BTW, I'm another musical nerd who loves the sound of the alto clarinet. It is more of a challenge for me to play than the bass clarinet because my small fingers have to stretch more. Peter Spriggs repositioned the thumb rest for me when he worked on it, which made a huge difference in hand fatigue.
Susan Keess
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-09-20 19:27
Many TKS, E g and S K for good info re: our well-loved, "different" clar. I also have quite a rt. hand "finger stretch" to reach the Eb, glad for the plateau keying ! Yes E g, I "tried" oboe/EH on back, enjoying the very few EH solos, Steppes, Franck D Minor, and love hearing the Wm Tell, The Swan and others. The Buffet and other "small bore" altos mentioned above intrigue me since my Sel is also "small" in comparison, measuring about 16.65 mm at the [accessible] neck bottom, which I believe [no proof tho !] gives it a better tone quality [toward the BH perhaps?]. Comments will be welcomed. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-09-20 20:10
Speaking of Altos, what exactly is that screw thingy on the front near the neck for? A lyre?
--
Ben
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-09-20 21:56
Yup. I've been told by a French Selmer rep that the French military specifications for their military bands all require the mount to be shipped as part of the instrument. I do know that even the old Selmer basset horns, instruments that are probably less suited for marching than anything short of a contra-bassoon, were provided with them as well.
Gee, an alto clarinet in a marching band - there's your example of futile...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-09-20 23:25
sorry to disagree with you but the tone quality of the alto might very well be "vapid" but the tone quality of the viola most certainly is not.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-09-21 00:43
I've been told by a master luther that, in order to have the proper sized sound box for its string length and overall structure, a viola would have to be the size of a viola d'gamba. Fitting that under one's chin might be a tall order for most of the violists of my acquaintance.
I've done the Max Bruch trio for clarinet, viola and piano, and had to watch it with volume in order to better balance the clarinet against the cigar box. (The piano had no such problems.) My f level had to be throttled back to mf at best, just to keep it all in balance.
Another thing that I don't understand about them is that they are seated in the standard orchestral setup with the sound holes facing the wrong way for maximum projection. What's with that?
And then there's alto clef...
By the way, I've got two grandaughters who are both studying viola. The eldest of these has already noticed the difficulty of making the thing sing, and is suffering a serious case of 'cello envy. Every time that I see here, I keep whispering about the spare bass clarinet that I've got in the music room.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-21 01:20
Violas are getting the respect they deserve even though belately.
They are beautifully sounding instruments.
I don't know the alto clarinet analogy to viola is valid.
I'm not familiar with the AC.
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2006-09-21 12:16
Don,
On occasion I've had my alto and basset horns both out at the same time and did a compare and contrast with the sounds. Both of these are LeBlanc Paris horns and I used the same Hawkins mouthpiece on both. This mouthpiece is actually the best on both horns, although the Grabner is better on the low notes on both.
Side by side the bassett horn is much stuffier than the alto, surely because of the relative smaller bore, although it is much esier to play the high notes and, of course descends to low C whereas the alto goes just to low Eb. It would seem that just adding the extra keywork to an alto to low C might make it a more valuable member of the orchestra and an easy sub for the bassett horn. Every time I've played bassett horn in public the conductor always wants MORE. In playing the Mozaret Requiem I thought it should be retitled "Requiem for the Bassett Horn" as we were blowing our brains out trying to be heard! The LeBlanc bassett horn has been described as "more like an alto" by some of the bassett horn afficionados but I haven't played on the others enough to know, just a quick try at a rehearsal, but the Buffet and Selmer both felt stuffier thasn my LeBlanc.
Hope that's some help.
And I hope no one thought I was trying to disparage the violas, far from it. Played in good hands I find it the prettiest of the strings. I sit next to them in my usual seat as English horn in the symphony so I have a great appreciation for them.
Eefer guy
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-09-21 14:21
I too play a Leblanc basset horn, but I find that it speaks clearly and beautifully throughout its range. No evidence of stuffiness. The low, basset notes are especially full and clear. I use a Bill Street mouthpiece now, but it also played quite nicely with a Vandoren B45. I use Vandoren #3 reeds - preferably the softer ones in the box (#2.5s are too soft).
I recently played trios, and one of our group played a buffet basset horn. No one could tell the difference - we blended quite nicely.
I've never played an alto, but I would think that if one had to chose, then it would be much better to own a basset horn and easily transpose Eb parts. That way, one could play all the music written in Eb and F (as well as G!).
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Author: HungryTurkey
Date: 2006-09-22 00:39
I am a student playing the alto clarinet in University...(and obviously much younger than a majority of folks here, but hang in with me...)
When I made the choice to switch to AC, it wasn't because I was a poor Bb (I was first chair, back when those things mattered so much)! I think that's a big reason that Alto Clarinets get a bad rap is because desperate band directors force a below average student to play a different instrument...
But I digress. I switched to the alto clarinet because of the sound. Initially the alto seemed harder to me...well, harder I wouldn't say persay...it's just more finicky.
In high school, when I was without an alto clarinet part, I played saxophone parts or occasionally basson/bari sax/baritone parts.
One particular piece that I remember playing in high school that the AC did well in was Rhosymedre (I hope I'm remembering and can almost halfway spell that right). As I get older, my mind takes more frequent walks.
But anyway, I just play in clarinet choir in university and find it delightful.
The biggest contribution the AC offered to my life was forcing myself to become a better musician...I had talent, but would often get lax in big ensemble groups, not always rely on myself to count as effectively as I could, but when I was removed and placed on an alto clarinet by myself, I had to figure out everything...I had to take initiative and I had to grow as a person.
Apologize for the ramblings, but occasionally it happens!
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