 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-09-16 14:51
Chris, I have seen/may-have a copy of a VERY old US patent by Heckel. I believe it was published in one of a series of articles by Harry Bettoney, re: Altenburg's ?book? on the cls, in a 1950's Woodwind "magazine" which some of us may still be able to find [I'll look]. It may be searchable on USPTO via "Heckel AND clarinet", among the "References Cited" in the 1976 + patents . It might be your "clarina" . Try it, good luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-16 17:46
I didn't have much luck with the Heckelclarina, but I did check out the Marchi system speaker mechanism and the various Selmer speaker vent patents.
I don't think the Joppig book will have it as that only covers double reeds (oboes, bassoons, Heckelphones, Rothphones and Sarrusophones).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-16 18:07
Ben, the Heckelclarina is a single reed instrument, though I'm not sure what size or pitch it is.
I tried out a brand new Heckelphone about 8 years back (it was ordered by the late Derek Bell of the Chieftans fame) - I saw one (the same one maybe?) played on the BBC Proms about a year or maybe two years back by Geoffrey Browne, but to be honest I thought the £18,000 pricetag was a touch too much - my harp (Salvi Arianna) cost that! And a new Loree bass oboe is about a third of the price.
I remember one of our trumpet players making a similar looking instrument - he fitted a tumbledryer pipe to his old trumpet and to an old toilet, and even took it when we played in Germany!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-09-16 18:10)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-09-16 18:25
Chris wrote
> the £18,000 pricetag was a touch too much
So much for British understatement. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
What do heckel.de say? Or are they completely unrelated to your quest?
--
Ben
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-09-16 20:23
Chris- the Heckel {US}patent I referred to is # 706, 557 [way back in the old file] , you need an Alterna Tiff "reader" to view/copy. As I recall it, the crux is the two touches for Bb and register vent [as asked about in another thread !]. What they may have patented in DE and GB!!, I'd like to know if you search/find further. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-16 23:06
"What do heckel.de say? Or are they completely unrelated to your quest?"
There's a couple of Howarth employees that I might get to do this for me next week - one deals directly with them and the other is from Germany. That's unless they have literature on all Heckel's products, past and present. Their bassoon keywork options catalogue is a huge tome in itself.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2006-09-28 18:43
Chris,
There are photographs of the Heckel-clarina and Heckelphone-clarinet in two books by Günter Dullat: Fast vergessene Blasinstrument aus zwei Jahrhunderten and Klarinetten: Grundzüge ihrer Entwicklung. I just got both of these through Interlibrary Loan -- I don't know any German, but the pictures are fun to look at!
Neither instrument is a clarinet; they're both conical bore single reed instruments. The Heckel-clarina is very similar to a soprano saxophone. I understand it was developed to be used in one of Wagner's operas, but why they bothered I don't know. The Heckelphone-clarinet appears to be similar to a heckelphone but with a single reed mouthpiece.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-09-28 19:57
My mental database sorts slowly but surely. Wagner is the key.
One of the books -- probably Baines -- mentions an offstage call, for which Wagner suggested a simplified instrument like a clarinet, saxophone or tarogoto, with only a few keys. It was built, and "Wlach himself crawled out of the pit" to play it. "As usual, Wagner knew best."
That is presumably the mysterious Heckelclarina. If it had only a few keys, this would prove the matter. Chris -- do you remember whether the keywork in the photo you saw looked complete?
Ken Shaw
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2006-09-28 20:12
That conforms with what I've read about the motivation for the Heckel-clarina. But the keywork looks quite comparable to that of a soprano sax.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-09-28 20:31
The Heckelclarina was apparently made only to be used for the Shepard’s pipe in act III of Wagner's Tristan and Isolde. Does anybody have any knowledge if it has been used for anything else?
Alphie
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-28 22:17
"Chris -- do you remember whether the keywork in the photo you saw looked complete?"
I wish I could answer, Ken, but as yet I haven't found any leads to any photos online or elswhere.
The Heckelphone fingering chart from Heckel has the off-stage cor anglais solo from 'Tristan' transposed for Heckelphone on it, as well as the cor solo from 'William Tell' as suggested uses of the Heckelphone (the usual bass oboe pitched one, not the small Eb Terz Heckelphone or F Piccolo Heckelphone, both of which I have seen photos of).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2006-09-29 00:57
OK, I just made a 'Heckel-clarina' article for Wikipedia, based in part on (Google Language Tools translations of passages from) Dullat's Klarinetten book.
Then there's the heckelphone-clarinet, for which there's a new Wikipedia article too (not started by me, but I've edited it.)
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2006-09-29 10:50
I'd say the heckel-clarina could not have been made only to play the Tristan und Isolde part. The reason I say that is that (as I just learned) there were two sizes of heckel-clarina made -- in B flat and E flat. Presumably only one of these is needed for the Wagner part, so the fact that both were made indicates Heckel expected further uses for them.
This passage from the patent -- "Die vorliegende Klappenanordnung, welche der der deutschen Oboe ähnlich ist, soll eine Erleichterung der Spieltechnik gewähren. Diese Erliechterungen beruhen auf der Einrichtung eines selbsttätigen Oktavwechsels für die oberen Oktaven." [Google Language Tools translation: "The available flap arrangement, which that is similar to the German oboe, is to grant an easement of the play technology. This Erliechterungen is based on the mechanism of a automatic Oktavwechsels for the upper Oktaven.”] -- seems to me to suggest that Heckel may have had in mind a replacement for the saxophone with an improved fingering system. Sax had of course intended the saxophone for orchestral as well as military band use, an intention that failed; maybe Heckel thought he could succeed where Sax hadn't.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-29 11:22
So the Heckelclarina is pretty much an orchestral Tarogato-type affair. Maybe soprano and sopranino saxes proved more popular (and more affordable) resulting in Heckel giving up the Heckelclarina, and the Terz and Piccolo Heckelphones. The Eb clarinet and musette are up in this pitch - the musette being in either Eb (Marigaux and others) or in F (Loree).
I dread to think how much a Heckelclarina would (have) cost going by Heckel prices, but at least one of their experiments, the Heckelphone has stood the test of time, even though it is about three times the cost of a bass oboe. I've considered using a C melody or tenor sax in 'The Planets' as the bass oboe part is cued in the bass clarinet part, though the bass clarinet hasn't got the edge or brightness of tone needed for this part.
But Richard Strauss has put the Heckelphone to good use, thus securing it's future.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-29 12:42
Any chances of scanning some photos of a Heckelclarina and bunging the links on here?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-09-29 14:16
Ken Shaw wrote:
(quote)
One of the books -- probably Baines -- mentions an offstage call, for which Wagner suggested a simplified instrument like a clarinet, saxophone or tarogoto, with only a few keys. It was built, and "Wlach himself crawled out of the pit" to play it. "As usual, Wagner knew best."
That is presumably the mysterious Heckelclarina. If it had only a few keys, this would prove the matter. Chris -- do you remember whether the keywork in the photo you saw looked complete?
(unquote)
That is not at all what Baines says! To summarise Baines:
Wagner marked the part "cor anglais", but suggested constructing some sort of alp-horn.
Richter originally used a tarogato. This means a modern, post-1890 single-reed tarogato, not the earlier double-reed instrument of that name. Wagner died before the modern tarogato was invented.
Covent Garden: tarogato.
Barcelona: tiple (modern shawm).
Vienna: Wlach "crawled out of the pit" and played it on a soprano sax.
Most German opera houses: trumpet with a felt mute.
Bayreuth: straight wooden trumpet with one valve.
No mention of the heckelclarina.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2006-09-29 14:39
From the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica:
"HOLZTROMPETE (Wooden Trumpet), an instrument somewhat resembling the Alpenhorn in tone-quality, designed by Richard Wagner for representing the natural pipe of the peasant in Tristan and Isolde. This instrument is not unlike the cor anglais in rough outline, being a conical tube of approximately the same length, terminating in a small globular bell, but having neither holes nor keys; it is blown through a cupshaped mouthpiece made of horn. The Holztrompete is in the key of C; the scale is produced by overblowing, whereby the upper partials from the 2nd to the 6th are produced. A single piston placed at a third of the distance from the mouthpiece to the bell gives the notes D and F. Wagner inserted a note in the score concerning the cor anglais for which the part was originally scored, and advised the use of oboe or clarinet to reinforce the latter, the effect intended being that of a powerful natural instrument, unless a wooden instrument with a natural scale be specially made for the part, which would be preferable. The Holztrompete was used at Munich for the first performance of Tristan and Isolde, and was still in use there in 1897. At Bayreuth it was also used for the Tristan performances at the festivals of 1886 and 1889, but in 1891 W. Heckel's clarina, an instrument partaking of the nature of both oboe and clarinet, was substituted for the Holztrompete and has been retained ever since, having been found more effective."
and
"CLARINA, a comparatively new instrument of the wood-wind class (although actually made of metal), a hybrid possessing characteristics of both oboe and clarinet. The clarina was invented by W. Heckel of Biebrich-am-Rhein, and has been used since 1891 at the Festspielhaus, Bayreuth, in Tristan and Isolde, as a substitute for the Holztrompete made according to Wagner's instructions. The clarina has been found more practical and more effective in producing the desired tone-colour. The clarina is a metal instrument with the conical bore and fingering of the oboe and the clarinet single-reed mouthpiece. The compass of the Notation. f; sounds. F.
to instrument is as shown, and it stands in the key of Bb. Like the clarinet, the clarina is a transposing instrument, for which the music must be written in a key a tone higher than that of the composition. The timbre resulting from the combination of conical bore and single-reed mouthpiece has in the lowest register affinities with the cor anglais, in the middle with the saxophone, and in the highest with the clarinet. Other German orchestras have followed the example of Bayreuth.
The clarina has also been found very effective as a solo instrument. "
(That textual glitch is in the online copy I pasted from.)
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-09-29 14:59
rsholmes wrote:
(quote)
"Die vorliegende Klappenanordnung, welche der der deutschen Oboe ähnlich ist, soll eine Erleichterung der Spieltechnik gewähren. Diese Erliechterungen beruhen auf der Einrichtung eines selbsttätigen Oktavwechsels für die oberen Oktaven." [Google Language Tools translation: "The available flap arrangement, which that is similar to the German oboe, is to grant an easement of the play technology. This Erliechterungen is based on the mechanism of a automatic Oktavwechsels for the upper Oktaven.”] -- seems to me to suggest that Heckel may have had in mind a replacement for the saxophone with an improved fingering system. Sax had of course intended the saxophone for orchestral as well as military band use, an intention that failed; maybe Heckel thought he could succeed where Sax hadn't.
(unquote)
Let's clarify the German translation first, not helped by a speling errer. So far as I understand it (I'm a little puzzled as to the relevance of the word vorliegende) it means:
"The key mechanism we describe, which is similar to that of a German oboe, should simplify playing technique. These simplifications arise from the provision of an automatic mechanism for the octave key."
Modern saxes have automatic octave keys, but the original ones didn't. I don't know whether the sax changed before or after the invention of the heckelclarina.
But I doubt that Heckel was really claiming that his invention was better than the sax purely for being easier to play. I think it more likely - and I'm guessing here - that his intention was to produce an instrument that was as easy to play as a sax, while blending better with other orchestral woodwind. If, as rsholmes's Wikipedia article says, the heckelclarina sounded like "a cor anglais in its low register, a saxophone in the middle, and a clarinet in its upper range" then I would suspect that it had a substantially narrower bore than a sax, or at least a bore that flared much less.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2006-09-29 15:19)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-29 16:01
"The key mechanism we describe, which is similar to that of a German oboe, should simplify playing technique. These simplifications arise from the provision of an automatic mechanism for the octave key."
I can imagine the exact key system Heckel would have fitted it with, typical to Heckel-built German-system oboes and cors of the time with an automatic 8ve mechanism where the third finger ring only rises when the 8ve key is pressed.
But again I suppose the popualrity of the soprano sax (and probably the affordability and ease of playing them as well) has made the Heckelclarina redundant - with the right mouthpiece and embouchures a soprano sax can imitate several soprano (and some alto) woodwind instruments.
I remember seeing an octavin on the famous auction site - now there's a funny contraption - looking like a bassoon butt-joint with a small sousaphone-type bell and curved metal crook like a curved soprano sax both sticking out at the top.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: John25
Date: 2006-09-29 17:40
I think I have a picture of the Heckelclarina in an old Heckel catalogue. I have been looking for this catalogue ever since this thread was started, and as yet haven't found it. As far as I remember, the instrument was like a wooden soprano saxophone with simple system keys.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-09-29 18:39
John25 - a "wooden soprano saxophone with simple system keys" would be a tarogato. I didn't know Heckel had ever made tarogatos, which belong further east.
The Britannica article suggests that the heckelclarina was made of metal, and it doesn't sound like its keywork was especially simple.
The heckelphone-clarinet, meanwhile, apparently looked like a heckelphone with a single-reed mouthpiece. Heckelphones are made of wood, but again the keywork is far from simple-system.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2006-09-29 18:56
"I would suspect that it had a substantially narrower bore than a sax, or at least a bore that flared much less."
In Fast vergessene Blasinstrument aus zwei Jahrhunderten there are side by side photos of a heckel-clarina and a soprano saxophone. The latter appears to be longer but I'm not sure the scale of the two photos is the same. I'll assume not. Here are some measurements (of the photos, not actual size!) -- hc and ss refer to the heckel-clarina and soprano sax, respectively:
Length (bottom of mpce to end): hc = 14.8 cm ss = 16.4 cm
Width just below last tone hole: hc = 1.15 cm ss = 1.40 cm
-- as fraction of total length: hc = 0.078 ss = 0.085
Diameter of bottom tone hole cup: hc = 0.85 cm ss = 1.15 cm
-- as fraction of total length: hc = 0.057 ss = 0.070
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-09-29 19:18
rsholmes - very diligent of you to measure the photos! Certainly seems that the hc was relatively narrowed at the lower end, and had smaller holes, than the sax. How about the mouthpiece and the upper part of the bore - is that of sax dimensions, or narrower?
There must be a minimum amount of conicity at which an instrument stops being a sax (overblowing the octave) and becomes a clarinet (overblowing the twelfth). Presumably there's a certain range of conicity within which the instrument isn't quite sure what it is, and plays poorly. It'd be interesting to know whether the hc is less conical than the sax (as I supposed in my earlier post) or whether it is just as conical but smaller all the way.
I understand that you don't speak German. Do email me if there are any interesting-looking snippets in the text of this book that might shed light on any of this; my German is limited, but I'll have a go!
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2006-09-29 20:34
David Peacham wrote:
> rsholmes - very diligent of you to measure the photos!
> Certainly seems that the hc was relatively narrowed at the
> lower end, and had smaller holes, than the sax. How about the
> mouthpiece and the upper part of the bore - is that of sax
> dimensions, or narrower?
The body just below the mouthpiece is about 3 mm wide (in the photos) on both instruments. The soprano sax is shown without a mouthpiece, so I can't compare those, though I suspect it wouldn't be very meaningful anyway; it's really the interior dimensions you want.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-29 22:14
"Presumably there's a certain range of conicity within which the instrument isn't quite sure what it is"
Crap oboe, clarinet and soprano sax players tend to sound pretty similar, so it's hard to tell what they're playing at any given moment!
I think the oboe bore is around a 1:42 taper.
I wonder how a reverse conical bore (eg. recorder or Baroque flute) will work with a single reed mouthpiece, and what this could be categorised if it was to work well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2006-09-29 23:44
"There must be a minimum amount of conicity at which an instrument stops being a sax (overblowing the octave) and becomes a clarinet (overblowing the twelfth)."
Theoretically, the resonant frequencies of a stopped truncated cone obey a complicated formula, but it reduces to something simple in two limiting cases: when the amount that's been truncated is small compared to the length, and when the length is small compared to the amount truncated. In the latter case it behaves like a stopped cylinder (overblowing at the twelfth) and in the former case it behaves like a complete cone, or an open cylinder (overblowing at the octave); in between it overblows somewhere in between, but the difference between a truncated cone and a complete cone is tiny as long as the amount truncated is small, or in other words as long as the diameter at the small end is much smaller than the diameter at the big end.
For actual instruments with mouthpieces instead of perfect truncated cones it's hard to be quantitative, but the ratio of diameters ought to tell you something. For the heckel-clarina as I measured it, that ratio is less than 0.3 cm / 1.15 cm, about 1/4. (Smaller because the 0.3 cm is at the base of the mouthpiece, and the mouthpiece may take the diameter down further; and smaller also because I measured outer diameters and what's relevant is inner diameter.)
For whatever that's worth...
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2006-10-07 04:10
tictactux wrote:
"If you need assistance with German, just tell me."
I'll take you up on that, though on a different subject. Can I get a translation of the following, from Majer's Museum Musicum (1732), quoted by Edgar Hunt in "Some Light on the Chalumeau" (1961):
Man hat sonst Discant, Alt- oder Quart-Chalumeaux, wie auch Tenor- und Bass-Chalumeaux, theils mit dem Französischen / theils mit Teutschem Ton / und sind absonderlich ratione des schwehren Ansatzes / sehr hart zu blasen / die Application darauf correspondiret meistens mit denen Flöthen; Allein deren Ambitus erstrecket sich nicht viel über eine Octav. Wird derhalben vor unnöthig erachtet / weitläufiger hievon zu melden / zumalen / wann man eine Flöthen blasen kan / wird man auch hier praestanda praestiren Können.
(The slashes appear in Hunt's text.)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-10-07 13:30
Very interesting discussion, fellas, FWIW, may I step in [I fear to tread here], and post the # of W Heckel's 1902 {US} patent, [0],706,557 in which multiple register keying is shown. An additional source of their [H's] info/developments may be in W Altenburg's ?book?, some of which was "Translated by Himie Voxman and Emended by Harry Bettoney" and published in the old Woodwind magazines of the [July/Aug and Sept 1950, and perhaps some in 1949 as well] . There should be some patent art in DE, possibly in FR and GB also, but unknown to me. Al Rice likely can assist here, hope this may help, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-10-08 19:52
Looking thru some of my "archived paper" for old Leblanc cl ads, I found a 1916 patent, # US 1,169,358 to Niklas Schilzonyl, Whittier CA [LA County], in which figures 6 and 7 show conical tubes of about sop sax appearance, and some "duo" varieties . A scanning of his lengthy write-up seems to claim association to both cl and sax, with the names of saxonett, duophon, clarophone [perhaps others?], and some fingering descriptions, with a ref. to octave keys, on pg 4 et al. No prior art refs are made in the very early 1900's pats, and none [in the spec] herein. I'll search to see if this pat was ref'd later, and report anything of significance. FUN, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2006-10-09 17:10
Never mind, I found a translation in Rice's _The Baroque Clarinet:
"It is usual to have soprano, alto or quart, and even tenor and bass chalumeaux, at either French or German pitch, and because of their difficult embouchure they are very hard to blow. The fingerings of these correspond most closely with the recorder, but their range does not extend much beyond an octave. For that reason, it is deemed unnecessary to report at further length on this matter, especially since if one can play the recorder, one can also preform easily [on the chalumeau]."
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