 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bearmom465
Date: 2006-09-15 14:33
Can someone help me? I have a really really good Selmer wood clarinet that my daughter was using in college marching band, which I know is a no-no, but she was using it anyway because it plays much better than the other two cheapies we have. Well, they got caught in a downpour at their game last weekend and now the color of the clarinet seems to be changing in different parts from black to brown. The brown woodgrain is really starting to show through. I assume these are dyed black to begin with but would the rain cause it to change colors like it is. She wiped it off good when she got indoors but no dye came off of it then. If it was not the rain, we are stumped as to why this is happening and also is there anything we can do to restore the color. The clarinet is app. 33 years old. I found this board while searching online and am hoping someone can help me out on this one. Thanks!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-15 16:13
If I were you I'd live with it - since wood is a natural substance and infinitely variable it's a shame that some companies mask it in the way they do by staining the joints so they all match.
Obviously the tone or playability isn't affected by this, and reapplying stain could cause problems in itself - and there's the chance it won't last if you do have it stained black, so I'd be inclined to leave it how it is, no matter if it's not all that aesthetically pleasing.
But even though your cheapies aren't as good, always use them for marching - since marching music doesn't have to be all that 'musical' (it's just music to march to after all, and hasn't got much depth or soul to it anyway) you can get away with playing a clarinet that doesn't have the same depth of tone as the Selmer.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-09-15 16:27
Grenadilla wood in the natural state can range in color from a reddish, orangeish brown, through chocolate brown, to almost black. As it ages, is oiled, is exposed to air, etc. it tends to turn darker from the original color. Heartwood also tends to be darker, and as you move toward the exterior of the tree it may have brown or brownish orange coloration or streaks of both colors and the sapwood towards the bark can be much lighter to almost cream in color. Since heartwood is the darkest and most desirable for its tight grain and greater density it seems to be the benchmark of wood quality judgment. Instrument makers often stain or dye wood that has color variations for esthetic purposes or to imitate the darker heartwood. Checks or imperfections in some pieces of wood are filled with wood filler and then stained to camouflage the repair. Some instrument manufacturers will just stain or dye wood, no matter what quality or color, just to give a consistent appearance of all the instruments, or it is a tradition in some parts of Europe to have a dull black finish on instruments.
I have not seen your instrument but suspect that it was stained or dyed and the water removed some of it to reveal the natural color of the wood beneath. Using a wooden instrument for marching band is taking a huge risk but the removal of the surface color per se does not harm the underlying wood.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-09-15 20:57
I have assumed that ...if stained....older clarinets would have been stained with an oil base stain which I further assumed would not "wash out" with just rain water. I also have assumed that water based stains were not available thirty some years ago. I find it surprising that rain water alone would remove any stain. Maybe this horn was treated with lampblack or some other black powder and not stained in a conventional manner.
Bob Draznik
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-09-15 22:59
Clarinets are "colored" with either an oil based stain or water based dye. The dye is actually the older version used and was also filled sometimes with lampblack powder as a filler.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-16 00:14
If I were you,I'd remove the stains completely by using denatured alcohol.
It will restore your clar to it's original color which is usually more beautiful
than any uniform stain.
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Author: Garret
Date: 2006-09-17 00:57
But even though your cheapies aren't as good, always use them for marching - since marching music doesn't have to be all that 'musical' (it's just music to march to after all, and hasn't got much depth or soul to it anyway) you can get away with playing a clarinet that doesn't have the same depth of tone as the Selmer.
I agree with this--don't use wood for marching if you have a plastic clarinet. Besides, it's very rare to hear a clarinet on the field, unless there's some sort of clarinet feature, and even then, no one cares what it sounds like as far as tone. Having been in marching band in high school, college and as an alum, clarinet players pretty much just fill space on the field.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-09-17 12:02
Has this student used the clarinet outdoors for more events than just the rainy one? And is the color paler on the upper side where most of the keys are? At outdoor flea markets, I often see clarinets that have bleached, believe it or not, just from being exposed to the daylight for hours on end. The black fades and the original color of the wood begins showing through. Apparently that black pigment many manufacturers use is fugitive in sunlight, a common problem with artists' colors as well. That's another good reason to keep the wooden clarinet indoors. I completely agree with those who've written that the lower quality of the plastic instruments simply doesn't matter in an outdoor performance, especially when the kids are marching. Too many bad things can happen to a good wooden clarinet outdoors in the elements.
No matter what color that clarinet has turned, I'd never use denatured alcohol on the wood! Alcohol is drying and can damage the wood. If the wood already got stressed from the outdoor playing, alcohol treatment could promote cracking. If anything, I'd give the whole clarinet a very light going-over with a small amount of bore oil (not enough to leave an oily residue). Oil will help smooth out any irregularities in the dye without doing anything drastic to the wood.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2006-09-17 12:05)
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-17 12:54
To Lelia:
Using alcohol on grenadilla is perfectly safe. You don't soak it with the alcohol. You just rub wood with a facial tissue and a dab of alcohol.
Because the dyes manufactures uses are alcohol based it is the best solvent to use for removing stains. After removing stains, apply almond oil sparingly to make the color darker and more even.These are not pigments.
pigment: crystalline color compound which doesn't disolve in alcohol or oil.
.........doesn't fade even when exposured to light for long time
dye:coloring material which disolves in alcohol,oil or water
..........All are fugitive (i.e., fades) at different degree.
As far as I know and have hands on they were all dyes not pigments.
violin maker
Post Edited (2006-09-17 13:30)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-09-17 20:28
It's true that alcohol and oil are not themselves dyes or pigments (though some tree oils contain so much natural pigment that they're already dyes, in effect, and will stain wood). It's true that the dyes musical instrument manufacturers use are not all alcohol-based. It's also true that pigment is an ingredient in dye. But, none of those facts alter the fact that, regardless of whatever forumulas individual clarinet makers may use to darken the wood, some of the pigments, as used in those dyes, definitely do fade in sunlight.
I've watched it happen, as flea market instruments sit in exposed to the light outdoors every Sunday for several weeks. These instruments start out black and end up paler on the surface that's exposed. It happened this summer as usual, and the fading wasn't due to rainwater, since it happened during a record-breaking drought when we had no measurable rain for more than six weeks. Other instruments sit outside the same way but they don't fade: either they're not colored and the natural wood doesn't fade or they're colored with something that doesn't fade. My point is simply that the only way to find out is to take the risk--something I'm not willing to do.
>>pigment: crystalline color compound which doesn't disolve in alcohol or oil.
.........doesn't fade even when exposured to light for long time>>
Some pigments are compounds but others are not. They're not all crystalline in structure. The elements chromium, magnesium, iron, cobalt, arsenic, selenium, gold, mercury, lead, fluorine, titanium, sulfur and chromium (among others) are all pigments, all still used in their pure form today by makers of paint, ink, dye and glass, although today, most of us (I'm a semi-retired stained glass designer-builder and my husband is a bookbinder) won't or can't (for legal reasons) use the most poisonous pigments, such as arsenic. Many plants provide pigment, as well (for instance, the Native American tribes here in Virginia made excellent dye from native Virginia black walnut trees, such as the two outside my kitchen).
Different pigments dissolve in different media. Some pigments dissolve in alcohol. Some dissolve in water. Some dissolve in oil. Some dissolve in acid. Sometimes two pigments that each dissolve in different solvents can be ground super-fine and suspended in oil or water to create a compound dye, or dyes that can't be mixed successfully can be layered over each other after the first coat of dye dries--not something I imagine would be necessary for clarinets, but I've watched violin maker and repairman Bill Weaver apply very thin layers of red-toned and yellow-toned varnish first, then rub those down, so that they glow subtly through the layers of brown varnish that finish the instrument.
Some pigments don't fade in sunlight; others do. Some manufacturers are more careful than others about chosing pigments. Some fade in sunlight in some media but not in others. For instance, many pigments that are notoriously fugitive in water color paint will hold their color perfectly well in glass in a window, if they're added to the glass while it's molten--though often the color of a pigment added to water or alcohol is nothing like the color of the same pigment when added to silica sand, potash and lime to make glass. The color of some glass pigments can be manipulated with startling results (green to red, for instance) just by annealing the glass in a reducing fire.
I still don't ever plan to rub down a wooden clarinet with alcohol. I understand you don't advocate soaking the instrument in the stuff, but even so, alcohol dries out the surface far more than just swabbing does. Drying promotes cracking, and swabbing with it may do unexpected things to the color. Bore oil may move (blend) friable color, but it's less chemically active than alcohol and less likely to outright *change* the color.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2006-09-17 20:33)
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-18 05:09
Lelia
Thank you for your detailed info.
I understand your point of view. But wiping off artificial stain is one time thing.Just doing once won't hurt your instrument at all.
I did it on my R13 because when it was new,there was ugly metallic reflections of light due to stains.It looked like cheap ink to me.It was not pigment at all.
The color of my R13 is now very natural and vibrating with deeper reflection of light.
It's a shame that manufactures tries to cover natural beauty of wood so that it looks like plastic.
Imagine what violins would look like if old masters did what modern maker are doing now to clarinets. Real stradivari wouldn't command millions instead maybe a few thousands.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-09-18 11:32
>>It's a shame that manufactures tries to cover natural beauty of wood so that it looks like plastic.>>
The natural color of the wood looks beautiful to me. I can understand the manufacturers wanting their clarinets to look "expensive"--and clarinet players today are so accustomed to the idea of the best wood being dark, non-streaky black that it must be difficult for a manufacturer to decide to do something differently.
>>Imagine what violins would look like if old masters did what modern maker are doing now to clarinets. Real stradivari wouldn't command millions instead maybe a few thousands.>>
The wood probably would have been more subject to damage, too, if it hadn't been varnished. Varnish apparently does make a big difference in the tone quality of a violin, or at least my husband and all of his stringed instrument-playing friends are completely convinced that it makes a big difference! Violin wood is so much thinner than the wall of a clarinet that maybe varnishing a clarinet would have no significant effect, but I wonder, has anybody ever sold varnished clarinets?
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-18 12:42
Heckel are famous for their varnished maple instruments (bassoons, contras, Heckelphones, etc.), even their bass clarinets were made of crimson stained and varnished maple like their bassoons instead of rosewood or grenadilla - and I assume the ever elusive Heckelclarina was probably made of varnished maple as well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-09-19 07:51
"but I wonder, has anybody ever sold varnished clarinets?"
Don't know for sure but would suspect that those old "propellor wood" horns had some kind of preservative finish on them.
Bob Draznik
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