 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Pat Parkin
Date: 2000-03-15 03:57
I have a Buffet Evette & Schaeffer Master Model on which the throat Bb is quite stuffy. I have tried the obvious such as cleaning the octave tube and checking the opening of the G# and A keys. The sound doesn't change even with these keys completely removed. I noticed that the bore up around octave tube is not as smooth and shiny that on my other clarinets and wonder if this could contribute to a less than good throat Bb sound. Any ideas?
Pat Parkin
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Author: Eoin
Date: 2000-03-15 07:21
This note is famous for being of very poor quality compared with other notes. This is because it uses the Register hole as a tone hole, a purpose for which it is not really suited.
I used to have this problem on my student clarinet. I find my present clarinet, the Buffet E-13, is much better in this respect.
If you want to keep the clarinet you've got, the only solution I've heard is to use the alternative fingering for B flat, using the A key with the second "trill" key operated by the right index finger. This usually sounds much better, but is not so easy to play.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-03-15 12:17
As Eoin has suggested, you can often use the "trill fingering" for the throat Bb. This works well in slow passages. In fast passages, just use the standard fingering and don't worry about it.
For some instruments, it helps to put down some of the fingers of the right hand when using the standard Bb fingering. It seems to give the note more resonance.
Be sure that your air support is good. This will help a little.
For some reason, on one of my instruments, Mitchell Lurie reeds give me a better throat Bb than Vandoren reeds although in general I prefer Vandorens. I'm not quite sure why this is.
To expand a little bit on Eoin's remarks about the register key hole, the size and placement is a compromise. The size and placement that gives the best overall tuning will give a very stuffy, poor quality Bb. The size and placement that gives the best Bb yields poor tuning from register to register and can make playing higher notes difficult or even impossible (play around and see what happens when you try to use that trill key as a register key to see what I mean). Every individual maker decides on what compromise he thinks gives the best balance. Some choose to favor tuning while others choose to favor the quality of the Bb.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2000-03-15 12:51
Pat,
If the clarinet is in optimum condition then the logical thing to do is use a 'reasonance fingering'. The best one I have come across and which I use as the everyday fingering except in extremely fast passages is: use the normal fingers i.e. lh thumb and first finger and add the finger next to the pinky on each hand i.e. lh C and rh G plus the rh pinky on the third space C key. You will get on to this real quick and makes a huge difference. It is also an easy fingering to go up from or down to.
Try it, you'l like it.
Peter Spriggs
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Author: Pat Parkin
Date: 2000-03-15 15:31
Eoin, Dee, Peter,
Thanks for the information. I knew about using the side trill key, which I use for slow stuff on my Evette, but I hadn't heard about putting other fingers down. I will try it after everyone in the house is awake. I guess my real question is about the condition of the bore and whether it might make a difference if I had the inside of the upper joint polished. I've seen posts from others that indicate that this is a good thing, but nothing specific to the throat Bb.
Thanks again,
Pat
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Author: Peter
Date: 2000-03-15 16:09
Pat,
The bore on the barrel of Evette & Schaeffer clarinets is on the small side. I have noticed great improvement when I have reamed out the barrel to more optimum dimensions. It also frees up the sound throughout the whole clarinet. Of course replacing the barrel with one of correct dimensions will help also.
Peter Spriggs
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-03-15 16:10
Pat Parkin wrote:
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... I guess my real question is about the condition of the bore and whether it might make a difference if I had the inside of the upper joint polished. I've seen posts from others that indicate that this is a good thing, but nothing specific to the throat Bb.
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I doubt that some roughness in the bore would make for a stuffy Bb. While I don't have a lot of evidence, I have some old metal horns that have rough bores due to bad corrosion. Their Bb notes are quite good sound but the intonation is terrible. So I would say that it is primarily size and location of the hole as chosen by the designers. So on horns with stuffy Bb notes, you just have to do the best you can with fingerings, hole cleanliness and so on.
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Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2000-03-15 17:14
Pat --
IF I had an E&S Master Model which I liked except for the throat B flat problem, and
IF I posted a question such as yours on this BB, and
IF an artist/craftsman of the stature of Peter Spriggs was kind enough to offer personal advice,
I would IMMEDIATELY email him and ask for a $$$ estimate for his work in adjusting the clarinet. Chances are excellent that for an expenditure of a few hundred dollars, you will end up with a clarinet which is clearly superior to the typical production line R13.
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Author: steve
Date: 2000-03-15 20:16
I think the throat Bb was put there to be stuffy for a reason...as evidenced by the first three notes of the 1re rhapsodie...its there to remind us to keep working to try to make a beautiful tone under all circumstances...
imho, resonance fingerings for this note are a personal thing, the best one determined by the horn, the volume of the air spaces in your body, your breath support, your ability to produce your mental concept of tone, your mp/barrel combination...try every resonance fingering you
can come up with...even try to invent your own.....see what context they work best in....
one of the most beautiful sounds I ever heard was mr marcellus playing the debussy...those first three notes at mp-p.....in severance hall....
s.
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Author: Pat Parkin
Date: 2000-03-15 21:40
Peter,
I tried the fingering you recommended and got quite a bit of improvement. Also had good results using r.h. Bb with B natural key and pinky on the r.h. C#,. I will consider getting work done on the barrel or a new barrel. Will contact you outside the forum if I decide to do this.
Thanks again,
Pat Parkin
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2000-03-17 05:36
4 ideas.
1.Make the key elevation to about 1.5mm or even smaller.
New clarinets have always have too much elevation.
2.Change to Roger Galper's special key.
3.Change the cork to one with a conical(but without
summit) hole.
4.Change the tube to a conical tube not cylindrical one.
As to 1,3,4, these are clichees to good repairmen, I guess.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2000-03-17 05:36
4 ideas.
1.Make the key elevation to about 1.5mm or even smaller.
New clarinets have always have too much elevation.
2.Change to Roger Galper's special key.Cost more than other
countermeasures.
3.Change the cork to one with a conical(but without
summit) hole.
4.Change the tube to a conical tube not cylindrical one.
As to 1,3,4, these are clichees to good repairmen, I guess.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-15 04:46
Why don't they make separate keys for venting and Bb?
It'll be an ideal solution if you have two diff.left thumb keys.
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-09-16 08:38
i've seen German bass clarinets with double thumb keys (one that is "reg+Bb", the other being a smaller and higher reg key for short tube notes), and i've also seen a modern Buffet bass clarinet with an extra thumb key that opens the B flat trill key (this had been specially fitted by a craftsman in Europe). This Buffet Bass also had the standard register exchange mechanism (ie, two register holes, one doubling as a B flat).
I have gone so far as to enquire here in NZ to see if i can find someone to fit such a key to my A clarinet, but with no success (though i haven't yet asked Gordon Palmer, who posts on this board). The trick would be to position the key in such a way/place that you could slide from "thumb covering hole + reg key" to "thumb on alt B flat key only" and vice versa.....
this placement would need to be in slightly different place for every player i suppose.
Many clarinets have been made with exchange mechanisms, and also with extra venting for B flat (ie Stubbins mech- not a true "exchange"). Generally, these have been found to be too clumsy and unreliable. Saxophones have an exchange mechanism for the thumb key, and while this is often annoyingl on student horns (unclear legato when the exchange is involved), many pro players manage to make it sound good....
many players sound good enough on the "normal" Boehm system clarinet.
i often use as resonance fingerings.... x23 C#/G# x23 F/C (recomended by Jack Brymer- slightly flatter in pitch) and x23 Eb/Bb(rh) x23 F/C (recomended by Carmine Campione- slightly higher in pitch than the other fingering). With these fingerings the tone of the B flat matches surrounding notes very well.
my R13 B flat has the standard vent, though i did for some time use a smaller bored vent that improved left hand 12ths but made B flat annoyingly low in pitch.
donald
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-09-16 08:49
The resonance additional fingers I like for Bb are 23-123. It makes a very smooth fingering transition to and from clarion register too.
When I am using these, I often use 23-12 for the G# and A.
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-09-16 10:47
a useful fingering for G# (which came to me from Ron Aufman) is
xx3 1xx
this fingering (on R13) projects especially well, but some players find it too bright
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-16 11:40
Please read my post "Cure for throaty Bb".
Now my Bb note is very resonant at any dynamic range using standard fingering without adding any lower holes. and it is exactly same pitch as trill key Bb.
In fact it is better than neighboring notes namely F,G,G#,A.
Post Edited (2006-09-16 20:41)
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