 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bkmoore
Date: 2006-09-03 15:48
I'm a long time reader, but this is my first ever post. I play a lot of music written for piano, mostly childrens' music for my two daughters. They love to hear me play. I also play occasionally in the church. I transpose on sight without any difficulties, but I've been thinking about getting a Clarinet pitched in C anyway. I don't really need one, but I've been thinking that it might be fun to explore the sound and it would be a lot of fun to play. I know there was another post about C clarinets, but it was more about the bore diameters, etc. I'm looking for opinions on using a clarinet pitched in C as opposed to just transposing the part. I play exclusively on the German system, so I'd be looking at getting one of the German clarinets. My B flat Clarinet is from Schwenk & Seggelke, so I'd probably go there first.
Thanks,
Brian
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-09-03 23:35
YES, bkm, its similar, but is a different inst. , sounds a bit more like an oboe and solves C to Bb trans. problems [if any]. I enjoyed and used mine . Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2006-09-04 13:22
Brian,
C instruments play a lot brighter than Bb's. If you have played on D or Eb, clarinets, it should not be a problem, unless you are trying to blend with someone playing Bb. Talk to the makers, though, and make sure you understand the mouthpiece requirements. Some C instruments are designed to play on standard mouthpieces, and some are not. I have a Boehm-keyed C which works well with my Bb mouthpiece, and am very happy with it, although I tend to use it only when I really need it.
This could be a good addition to your arsenal if you can afford it. For me, it came down to "dollars-versus-donuts": would I use it enough to justify the cost?
A google search came up with a Schwenk & Seggelke website in English. I had not heard of them before, and their instruments look very good. They are priced within the range of what I have seen for other high-end hand-made instruments. The website says that they make Boehm instruments too, with some interesting keywork innovations.
Regards,
Ralph
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-04 14:27
What length is a C clarinet (in centimetres), both with and without the mouthpiece?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-09-04 15:05
if you can affort it, it's worth it.
but you should also buy a basset horn
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-09-04 18:24
Attachment: AmatiCandBb.jpg (42k)
Chris P wrote:
> What length is a C clarinet (in centimetres), both with and without the
> mouthpiece?
Mine is 52 cm without the mouthpiece. It is designed to use a normal Bb mouthpice (the stock mouthpieces that came with the C is identical to its Bb twin's), so the combat size is 59.2 cm.
--
Ben
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-09-05 01:35
Having only played one once ... I was rather taken with its tone (GBK I think said it has a rather "matter of fact" tone). I liked it, not as piercing and obnoxious as the little E-flat and not as delicious and mellow as our beloved B-flat ... but I personally liked it.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-09-05 02:20
Brian,
If "I transpose on sight without any difficulties" is true, why do you need a C clarinet? If you're looking for a new sound, learn trombone, baritone sax, or bassoon. Now those instruments are really different and a lot of fun to play.
HRL
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-09-05 04:32
''> What length is a C clarinet (in centimetres), both with and without the
> mouthpiece?
Mine is 52 cm without the mouthpiece.''
That's interesting - I have an old clarinet given to me many years ago and which I intended restoring.
It's 50 +1/2 cm long, without mouthpiece. Would it be a high pitch C then perhaps?
thanks,
ned
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-09-05 05:10
Ned, as far as I know, the length of an instrument to be at a certain pitch depends also on its width (bore size). My guess is that's why the lengths are different.
A simple experiment to show how things are not so easy, is to take a recorder mouthpiece (the upper part of it), play, and then block the bottom hole. In theory this should lower the note by an octave. In reality this is not exactly an octave. This is because of the short length in comparison with the width.
Post Edited (2006-09-05 05:52)
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-05 06:49
>>Disclaimer...I don't own a C clarinet
I'm not a big fan of C clarinets, because I believe that all instrumentalists should be able to read concert pitch on their horns.
That being said, for the uses you want it for it might makes sense for you. Just make sure to keep reading C parts on your Bb, too...facility with transposition is a lot like muscle...it atrophies with disuse.
-Randy
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2006-09-05 14:35
Hank Lehrer wrote:
"If "I transpose on sight without any difficulties" is true, why do you need a C clarinet? If you're looking for a new sound, learn trombone, baritone sax, or bassoon. Now those instruments are really different and a lot of fun to play."
For me the answer is simple, Hank. If composers like Mahler and Strauss wrote separate discrete parts in a number of their works (notably the Strauss "Alpine Symphony" and several of his operas) I feel that it is our duty as re-creative performers to respect their genius to the extent that they heard in their minds a different tone color for those parts. This goes even deeper than the common practice of transposing A to Bb clarinet parts (and vice versa) for facility, in as much as the timbre of the C clarinet is -- to my ear, anyway -- unique!
I love my 30-year old R13 C clarinet -- only wish I had more opportunity to use it these days.
Larry
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-09-05 14:43
Hi Larry,
Funny, I did not sense that Brian was a symphonic player in his email. He said "I play a lot of music written for piano, mostly childrens' music for my two daughters. They love to hear me play. I also play occasionally in the church....I don't really need one, but I've been thinking that it might be fun to explore the sound and it would be a lot of fun to play." I must have missed the intellectual leap of him possibly needing the C clarinet for Mahler or Strauss. I'll try to think more deeply next time. Thanks for correcting my logic.
HRL
Post Edited (2006-09-05 15:47)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-09-05 17:11
(Disclaimer - I am maker of the Forte' C clarinet)
To begin with I am not familiar with the German system "C" clarinets so I have no recommendations. The sound of the "C" clarinet most closely resembles the female soprano voice and is used by composers for this effect, especially in opera. Unfortunately the "C" clarinet has gotten a bad rap for sound because of poor examples of the instrument. The "C" clarinet can be very pleasing and mellow in sound in good examples of the instrument. It is fun to play and has gained much popularity for casual players who want to play with friends with other "C" pitched instruments and opens performance opportunities in church or synagogue and the easy accessibility of the piano repertoire. We all think the Bb instrument has a mellow sound (when played well) and the "C" clarinet can too. It is a toss up for those that easily transpose to play the type of music indicated but the sound of the "C" clarinet IMO blends better with young singing voices. You must take this as a biased opinion.
L. Omar Henderson
www.forteclarinet.com
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Author: bkmoore
Date: 2006-09-05 18:13
To keep this in perspective, no, I'm not a professional musician. I play purely for the enjoyment of playing the clarinet. It is simply a way to relieve stress and provide enjoyment for my family. My two daughters love hearing me play and they love to sing along. Their eyes light up and they get all excited and sometimes they fight over which song I should play. They're ages three and one, so too young to start playing themselves, but they see that it's something that I enjoy doing. With a little luck maybe they will want to play music someday, but I won't force them to play anything.
I love the sound of the flute and the oboe, but learning a new instrument is not a good option since I barely have enough time to devote to practicing on the clarinet with a full-time job and a family and all. If I manage one hour per day, I'm doing well.
Having said that, I would love to play Mozart's Clarinet Concerto in A K. 622 on a basset Clarinet using the Urtext someday, but I'm not there yet and won't be for quite some time. But if I ever do get there, it will be because I enjoy the clarinet and gradually develop my skills over many years.
Thanks,
Brian
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-09-05 18:53
Brian,
We have a lot in common (check my bio by clicking on my screen name and follwing the link to the homepage). I have taught many young Marines at MCAS Yuma, MCAS New River, MCAS Miramar, and MCAS Cherry Pt. as well as NAS JAX and NAS North Island.
Send me an email and I can fill you in on the details.
HRL
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-09-05 20:22
i'm sure we'd all like a crack at that Mozart concerto urtext
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Author: mankan
Date: 2006-09-05 20:25
I have no trouble in transposing from C to Bb. Have done so a lot of years while playing folkmusic with fiddlers and "keyedharpists" her in Sweden. Nevertheless, this summer I bought a C-clarinet.
Its an excellent instrument, a Buffet, with very good mechanism and a sweet, light soprano-voice.
No more transposing - and it has brought a new, brighter and more Klezmerlike sound to the folkmusic-group I´m playing with.
One problem though: The clarinet is marked Buffet, but nothing else. It´s a quality-instrument no doubt but I dont know which type.
I was told it is an RC made in the early 1980:s, and I have mailed Buffet to get more information but they havent answered.
Can anybody help me?
I payed about 1 500 dollar. Was it a good affair?
mankan
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2006-09-05 22:13
Hmm... nice instrument, good sound, price didn't break the bank and you wonder if it is a good. Yes, that is a good deal.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-09-06 14:55
It has a sweet flute-like sound.
If you did not studiously acquire transposition skills, it is a blessing.
Formerly costly, a decent instrument (Forte C) is now within the price range of a student level horn.
Note that (as mentioned in another thread) sales of C clars are up 600% recently. I think this is due to baby boomers (...I could be wrong) wanting to join casual groups (fake books or sheet music for piano in key of C) for fun, or play in church from organ music, or double for a flute or oboe).
It is a FUN instrument for those who are not pros.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2006-09-06 18:18
Alseg mentions the fact that C clarinet has recently soared in popularity. I'm sure that the fact that it is a neat, fun instrument to play has a lot to do with it. Another factor has to be that symphony conductors are asking for it, in lieu of transposition, with more frequency. I think this started when Wolfgang Sawallisch became music director of the Philadelphia Orchestra a number of years ago, and obliged the clarinetists there to use C clarinets where specified. I understand that there was a lot of initial resistance to the change -- old habits are hard to break!
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-09-06 23:03
Larry, interesting remark about the Philadelphians and their objections. Strauss (Richard) was adamant about the proper pitched clarinets being used in his operas and tone poems. I must try and find out what the Australian orchestras do, Opera Australia does a lot of romantic Italian opera (of course) and Verdi often scorred for the C clarinet.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-09-07 01:47
Allegedly, Rossini wrote ample numbers of C clarinet parts because a crony of his was the main clarinet dude and also preferred playing the C instrument.
However, for most of us the C clarinet is a luxury. With inexpensive ones now on the market, those who want to go the C melody sax route can do so.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2006-09-07 03:34
Ned sez: "It's 50 +1/2 cm long, without mouthpiece. Would it be a high pitch C then perhaps?"
My wifes Noblet 45 C clarinet which is brand new measures 50.5 cm long without the mouthpiece.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: kfeder@hotmail.com
Date: 2006-09-08 17:16
I bought an Amati C over a year ago because I play with a klezmer group and I don't have sight transposing skills. So it comes in handy when we are trying out new music for which we don't have tranposed parts. Also some parts are easier to play in the C version so it is nice to have the option of switching from Bb to C horn as needed.
I tried two Amati C horns and the one that I kept plays well.....although I am told that I am sometimes out of tune on the high notes.
I use a Bb mouthpiece with the C clarinet, a Vandoren B45
I am tempted to buy a forte C clarinet ....I wonder if that would solve the tuning issues???? Ken
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-09-08 17:52
kfeder@hotmail.com wrote:
> I tried two Amati C horns and the one that I kept plays
> well.....although I am told that I am sometimes out of tune on
> the high notes.
The Amati C clarinet, with the factory barrel tunes at A=442 ...GBK
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-09-08 20:57
(Disclaimer - I am designer and seller of the Forte' C clarinet)
The Amati 351 C clarinet was the instrument that we began with to make the Forte' C and consequently made significant changes which alter the intonation, tuning, and tone of the instrument. The factory barrel, as GBK suggests, tunes to A=442 on the 351 C.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: William
Date: 2006-09-08 21:16
I play a Buffet E11 C clarinet (Chadash barrel) when I need to. For being a relatively inexpensive specialty horn, it plays very well and is actually fun for a change. Mostly, however, to avoid messy instrument switchs and intonation problems within the section, I usually just transpose C parts on my Bb. Transposing is a skill you should develop and use whenever possible--especially for those frequent mutas to A clarinet that don't last very long.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-09-11 19:29
GBK wrote:
> The Amati C clarinet, with the factory barrel tunes at A=442
That is subject to the market in which the clarinet is sold, I was informed by one of the (very responsive, btw) Amati sales people. "American" Amatis tune differently to "European" ones, then.
--
Ben
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Author: kfeder@hotmail.com
Date: 2006-09-11 22:04
Is there a way to verify if my barrel on my Amati C tunes to 442 or 440???....I can't tell using my tuner.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-09-11 22:23
(Disclaimer - I am maker of the Forte' Bb and C clarinets)
The 351 Amati C clarinet that we purchased from Amati U.S.A. came with a barrel that tuned to A=442. I can not speak for all those sold.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: javier garcia m
Date: 2006-09-13 19:31
I'm a good reader and good in transposition, but now I'm playing with flute and bassoon and the C clarinet is priceless to play directly the parts of oboes, violins and so on, the repertoire enlarges unlimitedly.
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Author: graham
Date: 2006-09-15 10:55
Respecting Mahler and Strauss's genius by playing C parts on a modern C instrument is pretty futile. Mahler and the younger Strauss heard and composed for orchestras with gut strung instruments played with little or no vibrato and perhaps with portamento, with French bore bassoons which have largely died out, and oboes with different sized reeds to the modern counterpart (and a different general tone and dynamic capacity), and a whole family of narrow bore brass instruments whose sound and general dynamic behaviour is entirely different from the set up of modern orchestras, together with timpani the sound of which bore no resemblance to the modern equivalent. In this context, the refined distinction between a modern polycylindrical B flat clarinet played (often) on more open facings than Mahler's clarinetists would have contemplated, and the equivalent modern C clarinet, is negligible to the point of nil.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2006-09-15 12:51
Graham, Your assertion that instruments and orchestral techiques have evolved since the days of Mahler and Strauss is undeniable, even though you have IMHO overstated your case. (eg: German bassoons have changed very little since troglydytes made fire by rubbing sticks together; French bassoons are still very much alive -- if not in the UK -- and would not have been the sound in the heads of M & S in any case). I don't know your basis for stating that timpani and brass sounds are that much different, also; although narrow bore brasses may have been de rigeur in England and France, that was not the case in much of Europe and in America. Having watched the New York Philharmonic performing the "Eroica" on TV last night with the trumpets playing German "sidewinder" instruments tells me that the impetus toward more authentic sounds is still alive.
Your assertion that modern polycylindrical clarinets have erased the difference between the sound of Bb and C clarinets is ridiculous. Even though neither may sound exactly the same as the instruments that M & S knew, the fact that there is a easily perceived difference in timbre between the two validates honoring the composers' choice.
I appreciate your obvious scholarship and musical erudition; my own empirical experience leads me to respectfully differ!
Larry Bocaner
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-09-15 13:24
Referring to Bb and C clarinets Larry Bocaner wrote: "the fact that there is a easily perceived difference in timbre between the two validates honoring the composers' choice."
I don't know if the difference is so obvious. If you play C clarinet, and heard a lot of C clarinet, then maybe. I never played a C clarinet, and very rarely even heard a C clarinet. When I was in a concert where the clarinetist played from a place I wasn't able to see him (it was solo clarinet with organ accompaniment), he played one piece on a C clarinet. Unless I later saw in the program that one piece had a C clarinet I would never know. I am not sure how much playing a piece on C clarinet will make the intention of the music come across better.
By the way, I'm not saying people shouldn't use C clarinets, but I think that maybe transposing is a fair compromise many times.
Post Edited (2006-09-15 13:58)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-09-15 13:58
Clarnibass,
Bb and C clarinets do sound differently for the same (perceived) tone, if only just because the air column behaves a tad differently (a Bb's clarion G sounds like a C's clarion F, but one tonehole more is involved, with all the additional turbulences.)
I own a Bb and a C clarinet of the same maker, same league (ie non-pro grade) and I thought about recording a scale (eg F maj) on each and use a wave editor to tune one a half note up and the other half a note down (so that either gets roughly the same distortion in the process) and check if I could tell them apart.
For the purpose I am using it, all these "authentic sound" discussions are not relevant - I just want to play along, and if the score's in concert pitch there I am with my C horn. I should add that I am not shy of playing violin, kazoo, harmonica or voice parts, I'm not that picky. "For Fun" is the keyword here.
--
Ben
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Author: graham
Date: 2006-09-15 14:57
Larry, I think you misunderstood certain aspects of what I said. I did not mean that the use of polycylindrical design eliminates the difference between a B flat and C, but that the difference between the sound of a modern polycylindrical clarinet and the straight bore versions of c. 1900 of the same pitch is just as great if not greater. I know this from playing 100 year old straight bore clarinets.
You are right about the Heckel bassoon, which was an oversight because Mahler would have heard that kind of bassoon.
If you have the opportunity ever to listen to a live performance of the New Queen's Hall Orchestra (a period band based in London) you would hear an extreme difference in the sound of the narrow bore brass, and this can be detected to a lesser extent on recordings. Also, gut strung violins sound lighter and quieter.
I was referring therefore to a matter of degree. The changes in the orchestra over that period are so great that the distinctions between C parts played on a modern C instrument and those parts on a B flat (or even an A, often used instead) are minor.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-09-15 15:27
Graham is dead right. In my experience with playing with the OAE and ORR and other period bands using the correct instruments is vital. I draw on a situation i had recently when i turned up to a gig to play a Haydn Mass and found the C clt wouldn't work, I had to transpose the C parts virtually at sight on my 7 keyed Bb. No mean feat i can tell you. My point is the composer knew about the differences in sound and also the technical aspects to the instruments of the time. This goes right through to about the 20s.
That said there are occasions when things a easier to play on a different instrument other than the one specified. Ravel Piano concerto 2nd movt solo, easier on the Bb than the A, and also his Tzigaine, first page solo easier on the A than Bb.
Each to there own. I personally see the benefits of having a C and also think there great fun to play. Some of those opera parts are devlish on Bb. If i wasn't such a poor young professional i'd buy one to add to my classical instruments and basset Clt.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-09-15 16:07
It would be interesting if Tony Pay chimed in on this.
He plays a C clar which is tuned to original specs.
Obviously the Forte or any other modern model is tuned to modern values, but the sound of the C instrument (17 or 5 key or otherwise) is distinctive, and exciting when played well (such as Mr Pay does).
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2006-09-15 17:32
With all due respect, we're quibbling about apples and oranges here! The 7(or so) key instruments played in "period" bands are quite a different animal than the Oehler and Boehm instruments of the late romantic period.
In Beethoven and Mozart's time the rationale for using C, Bb or A clarinets had more to do with the facility of fingering a more primitive instrument in remote tonalities than it had to do with issues of tonal color. This is definitely not the case in Mahler, Strauss et al. There are in some of Strauss's operas and chamber works Bb/A and C clarinet players seated side-by-side. His choice of which to assign certain solo passage to appears to have been dictated by considerations of tessitura and color, rather than key signature.
Clarnibass, your inability to detect that a player was playing on a C clarinet would not have been a problem if he had played serially on both. Some Czech players sound "brighter" on A clarinets than some German players sound on C clarinets -- therefore there are other conserations, obviously.
I'm not slavish about using exactly the instrument specified by the composer; as I might have stated earlier in this thread, I use the A clarinet for the slow movement of the Beethoven Violin Concerto instead of the specified C -- don't like playing all of those naked throat Bb's in a solo if I don't have to. Also don't like to play too many f#-g#'s or c#-d#'s" as would be necessary if I transposed to Bb clarinet. Also use the A clarinet instead of the C on Berlioz's Benvenuto Cellini Overture--lies better for me!
Peter Cigleris, You start your post by saying "Graham is right" but then proceed to validate my argument. Maybe nobody/everybody is "right"! Hope you are able to afford a C clarinet soon -- you're missing a lot of fun!
Larry Bocaner
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-09-16 04:36
Tictactux, notice that I didn't say Bb and C clarinets don't sound different for the same sounding note.
Larry, can you explain what you meant by "played serially on both"? I didn't understand it.
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Author: graham
Date: 2006-09-16 08:23
Larry; the key point in Peter's post is that when playing with authentic instruments (as he does in the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment) playing on the correct instrument is vital. But that does not mean it is if you have decided not to play on authentic instruments, which is entirely my point. Post 1920s orchestras don't sound the same as pre-20s orchestras.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-16 11:48
clarnibss:
I think it means he plays Bb and C clarinet one after another.
Post Edited (2006-09-16 11:49)
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