 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2006-08-25 00:47
After talking with my instructor about some buzzing tones in my playing and the pads on my clarinet, I am looking at replacing all the bladder pads on the upper joint with cork pads. My instructor has recommended this, but, as he forewarned, it's quite expensive (almost $300). While I will probably get this done anyway, I'd like to ask you all of your opinions on the matter, as well as perhaps some drawbacks of cork and whatnot. (Swelling?)
Thanks!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-08-25 01:02
I suggest you use the forum 'search' facility. The issue has been very much discussed before, and recently.
IMHO buzzing tones are more to do with venting, how the pads are installed, the quality of pad, the reed and the player, than whether the pads are cork or not.
I very seldom use cork pads in overhauls, and I certainly don't have a stream of customers mentioning buzzing notes! I actually cannot recal even one.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2006-08-25 01:11
My apologies - I would have searched but was thinking more of asking opinions on if I should get it done or not, rather than the specifics of cork vs. bladder. I'm more interested in how many people out there actually use cork over bladder pads, which is more common with professional players, etc.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pewd
Date: 2006-08-25 01:45
$300 is too much for just pads - I think I paid $90 to have an upper joint switched to cork pads.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-08-25 03:10
Looking for the CHEAPEST cork job may not be a good idea. I had some installed when I bought my new horn at Weiner's and frankly the job was not good. The quality of the cork (smoothness, no knots) is important as well as installing them flush with the tone hole (not the case on my cheap installation).
Cork doesn't swell. At least not in an appreciable way that affects the seal or playing characteristics. It does seal better than fish skin and renders a more solid sound.
Have it installed by a repairman familiar with cork padding and eager to do it. The Brannens have always used cork for example.
Just a note: I had my Wurlitzer 100Cs corked and had to factor the price of having all the pads replaced with leather upon resale because Germans don't even know what the hell cork is.
..........Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2006-08-25 11:00)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2006-08-25 05:51
I bring my clarinets to Dave Dzubay, who repairs instruments for the Minnesota Orchestra. He's exceptionally good; a true master at his craft. I don't think his price is unreasonable for the quality work he does. I think I will have it done - just have to start saving...Thanks for the input!
Chris Arcand
Clarinetist, MN, USA
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2006-08-25 13:24
All of my horns have cork pads predominately on the upper joint and bladder pads on the lower -- done by Bill Brannen at great expense and worth every penny!
To my friend Dave Spiegelthal: I don't care for the "mushy" feel of most leather pads -- also don't think they seal as well as cork or bladder.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-08-25 14:09
I have 2 clarinets with bladder pads and don't have any buzzing notes on them. Both of them (one is from 1991 and one from 1999) still have all their original pads except one pad changed on the older of the two. The only hiss/buzz I have from a pad is the register hole on my bass clarinet, which is impossible to ventilate more. I will try a cork pad there to see if it helps. Before you go with this 'upper joint overhaul' why don't you pick a couple of notes that buzz, and only have him change the pads on those to cork pads. See if you like the feel of it and if it solves the problem. I really don't see the reason to pay $300 in advance when you can so easily try it by only changing a few pads.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-08-25 15:56
LarryBocaner wrote:
*** > To my friend Dave Spiegelthal: I don't care for the "mushy" feel of most leather pads -- also don't think they seal as well as cork or bladder. *** <
As far as I'm concern leather pads are the best pads. Leather pads are most quiet which is ideal in the studio recording situation or chamber music. They seal exceptionally well and with a little care (moisturizer) will outlast any pad on the market. These pads do require careful seating almost without any pressure applied during the installation process otherwise the false seat achieved by pressure will make this pad unreliable.
After reading some reports that leather are porous and tend to leak air I did a lot of testing and found all these claims to be just a theory/myth. Maybe in saxophone world is different but these claims are untrue for soprano clarinets. A clarinet repadded in leather hold vacuum very well, better than with bladder pads. If there was any leakage through leather this would be impossible.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-08-25 16:16
Dear Vytas
But you're not saying leather holds a better seal than cork. I agree with the issue of the pads being less "noisy" but the effect on the sound you get out of the horn far outways this consideration for me.
Clarnibass suggests the piecemeal approach but you have to consider the "weakest link" syndrome. You will never get the effect of the change if there are pads of lesser ability in the system.
Of course the four large pads at the bottom of the horn and the one at the top of the bottom joint cannot be cork. With these I have seen success with leather as well as triple fish skin pads and a synthetic foam material used by Bill Street. There is one very skilled fellow that advocates the use of the Valentino pad in the Ab/Eb cup but this is the ONLY place where I would tolerate such a pad. I believe the rationale for the Valentino in that spot was both for seal and silence (in sliding situations).
...........Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-25 16:29
I personally favour cork pads over all other types for a multitude of reasons, but do have them installed by a competent repairer.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-08-25 16:50
Attachment: Cimg2014.jpg (170k)
Has anybody yet tried the new Kraus "Omni" pads?
They may well be better than all of the above, who knows.
They have a stepped profile, (I think with a choice of several thicknesses protuding from the key cup), and seem to be molded from a very stable, quiet, foamed polymer at the face, and rigid, firm polymer at the back. See photo.
Post Edited (2006-08-25 17:02)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-08-25 16:52
"Clarnibass suggests the piecemeal approach but you have to consider the "weakest link" syndrome. You will never get the effect of the change if there are pads of lesser ability in the system."
As far as the overall feeling you are right. But if a certain bladder pad hisses, and if changing to cork should solve this type of hiss (according to his teacher it should if I understood correctly), then changing just the pad that hisses should solve it on the specific note. As far as I understand stopping the hiss on some notes is the main reason he wants cork pads. I see absolutely no reason not to change a couple first to check if it solves this problem.
Post Edited (2006-08-25 17:02)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-08-25 17:05
That seems logical to me, Clarnibass. When there is a venting problem, it is usually only a few notes concerned.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-08-25 17:10
Paul,
Leather pads actually hold better seal than cork. To compete with leather the tone holes for cork should be perfect. BTW ANY pad on the market is good enough for soprano clarinet and seals well if installed correct. The rest is up to you what kind of pad you prefer.
You CAN successfully repad entire clarinet with cork but you might run in to some problems if too much finger pressure is used to compress the pads on the 'open' keys when playing. I wouldn't use any other adhesive than shellac for the four large pads at the bottom of the horn or you might run into 'support of the pad in the cup' reliability problems.
The weakest link with cork on the top and bladder on the bottom is bladder pads. Bladder pads do not last as long as cork. More and more professionals in the US turn to cork on the top (leather on open keys) and leather on the bottom combination. This is an excellent choice if you don't mind the noise from the cork.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-08-25 17:23
> They have a stepped profile....
A smaller pad provides better venting. Every time I got rid of stepped pads clarinet tone improved significantly. Stepped pads are thing of the past IMO.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: crnichols
Date: 2006-08-25 17:29
I use cork pads on the upper joint and leather on the lower joint. I have to agree with Vytass regarding the quality of leather pads. I seem to get the longest lasting seal with them, I can actually go for a year without an adjustment now if I need to.
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-08-25 17:52
"A smaller pad provides better venting. Every time I got rid of stepped pads clarinet tone improved significantly. Stepped pads are thing of the past IMO."
If I remember correct, you work only on professional quality clarinets (I think you posted this before)? That is probably good on pro clarinets.
On a Bundy clarinet I overhauled recently the throat G# tone hole was not centered below the pad cup. Only a stepped pad (bladder) worked and got a very good seal. Leather pad did not seal. I am not a professional repairer and don't have cork pad, but shaping a cork pad to be stepped is not worth it for such a cheap instrument ($30). I tried your idea that I read of putting a bigger leather pad to use as a stepped pad and it didn't work very well, at least with the pads I have.
Other than that, I mostly agree with your good advice on leather pads. I found they are very good, not difficult to install correctly, and get a very good seal.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-08-25 19:19
clarnibass wrote:
> *** "On a Bundy clarinet I overhauled recently the throat G# tone hole was not centered below the pad cup. Only a stepped pad (bladder) worked and got a very good seal. Leather pad did not seal. I am not a professional repairer and don't have cork pad, but shaping a cork pad to be stepped is not worth it for such a cheap instrument ($30). I tried your idea that I read of putting a bigger leather pad to use as a stepped pad and it didn't work very well, at least with the pads I have". *** <
The throat G# doesn't require a stepped pad. If the key was out of center (sideways) a simple bending with a smooth needle jaws pliers would do the job in 3 seconds. If the key seemed to be shorter (or longer) and out of center because of that, then the job is better left for more experience technician. This type of bending is more complicated and requires experience, common sense, and tools.
My idea of putting a bigger leather pad to use as a stepped pad also requires a lot of experience to work well. I agree, to seat a bigger leather pad (than required) is not that easy task because the pad just doesn't move that easy when you want it to. Later, when you get the idea how it's done, it's nothing but a piece of cake.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2006-08-26 01:05)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2006-08-25 19:47
Thanks for all the replies! I'm happy to see people having their own opinions on the matter.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-08-26 00:45
You know what they say about opinions, Chris --- like a certain body part, everyone's got one.................
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-08-26 06:01
"If the key seemed to be shorter (or longer) and out of center because of that, then the job is better left for more experience technician."
Yes the key was exactly like that, longer than the tone hole. The reason I bought this Bundy is to practice repairs. The total I would pay for a repairer to do just this one fix (including driving) would probably be more than I paid for the insturment.
"This type of bending is more complicated and requires experience, common sense, and tools."
By common sense alone I could do it even with the tools I have, but I thought that in this specific case there was absolutely no reason to not just use a stepped bladder pad. Much easier solution, doesn't require bending, and works perfectly. The throat G# tone hole is well ventilated on this clarinet so the pad type doesn't really matter (especially since it is a closed pad).
"to seat a bigger leather pad (than required) is not that easy task because the pad just doesn't move that easy when you want it to. Later, when you get the idea how it's done, it's nothing but a piece of cake."
Maybe after some practice I will be able to do it, but on pro clarinets I would just correct the pad-cup and tone-hole allignment, so a regular leather pad would fit. But, in this specific case of the Bundy, using your method of making a stepped leather pad would be problematic. The pad-cup is already very close to the trill key. The bladder pad just barely doesn't touch the trill key (on pro clarinets unlikely to happen). For the leather pad to seal, it would actually need to be bigger than the bladder pad, and touch the trill key.
Chris Arcand - What is probably the best option for you, is to make an appointment with your repairer. Have him look at the intrument and show him the buzzing notes. If he is an honest person he might find and suggest a much cheaper solution to fix these buzzes, for example just increasing ventilation. Try that first. It is also possible you would like cork pads even if possible to fix the buzzes in other ways. Try a cork pad or two, maybe you won't like their hardness and noise. Try a leather pad, you might like it, or not like that it's soft and quiet. It is very possible that he will find many other things to fix and not only the buzzing notes and pads. Sitting with the repairer and together finding the best solutions (i.e. he making suggestions and correcting and you try them by playing) is in my opinion the best way to go. He can change some keys to fit your hands more comfortably, something that is impossible without you present.
Good luck.
Post Edited (2006-08-26 09:35)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-08-26 21:14
clarnibass wrote:
> *** "But, in this specific case of the Bundy, using your method of making a stepped leather pad would be problematic". *** <
I've already told you "The throat G# doesn't require a stepped pad". It doesn't matter if it's a Bundy, CT or an R13. My method of making a stepped leather pad was my advice given for professional technician and you shouldn't be bothered with it until your skill goes up to the level. This method is unnecessary on smaller bore instruments like Buffet, Leblanc, Yamaha, SML, Malerne, Thibouville Freres, Couesnon etc. Big bore instruments like Selmer CT would require only one such stepped pad for the thrill Eb/Bb on the Upper-Joint etc. Without these vintage big bore instruments stepped pads would be obsolete.
clarnibass wrote:
> *** By common sense alone I could do it even with the tools I have, but I thought that in this specific case there was absolutely no reason to not just use a stepped bladder pad. Much easier solution, doesn't require bending, and works perfectly. The throat G# tone hole is well ventilated on this clarinet. *** <
There is no specific case here. That was YOUR choice and how you decided to deal with this 'out of center key'. What you did is nothing but work around the problem instead of fixing it. CORRECT approach would be to straighten out the key first and use a regular pad for it. The last thing I want to do is to bend a key but sometimes it's a necessary step to correct a misalign key. This is done even in the Buffet factory assembling/setting up brand new clarinets.
There's no such thing as "the throat G# tone hole is well ventilated on this clarinet" It's entirely up to technician or manufacturer how this key is set-up and it's done by using correct size and thickness of the pad, by adjusting the key cork thickness underneath or by bending (if necessary) etc.
If your goal is to become a 'Pro' you have to learn to diagnose and fix the problem. Working around the problem is not the way to go.
That's basically what separates good technician from the others.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-08-26 22:30
Clarnibass. I am highly impressed with your understanding, as a budding DIY repairer, of the issues and compromises that need considering in this job.
Vytas wrote, "Without these vintage big bore instruments stepped pads would be obsolete. "
Let us assume that a stepped pad is chosen so that it can be fitted with the felt slightly covering the edge of the key cup....
A stepped pad, no matter what the material, can have advantages, including:
1. It has a larger diameter, which is desirable fur situations already mentioned. Vytas, I guess you work only on professional instruments. In the 124+ brands of clarinets i.e. hundreds of different models) I have worked on, there have been MANY where misalignment of the three lowest keys (i.e. key cup arms too long or two short, for an appropriate thickness of pad to seal centrally) has been evident. It is also common on other keys.
2. The key cup edge gives additional support to the felt at the edge of the pad (depending on how the pad is installed). This could be likened to some degree to the extra springing given to the edge of a mattress, that makes the mattress more functional closer to the edge. In many situations, this is desirable also for a pad.
A stepped pad, no matter what the material, can have disadvantages, including:
1. The larger diameter can reduce venting in CERTAIN situations. A notable one is when the F# tone hole face is set very deeply.
2. It is more important to choose a pad with an appropriate thickness of felt, because the felt will always project beyond the key cup.
There are additional issues associated with the choice of MATERIAL of the pad, all of which have been well covered in other threads.
In view of all of the above, by far the majority of manufacturers AND technicians are still finding bladder pads the most appropriate choice for by far the majority of instruments. This vast majority of makers and technicians are not stupid. Many of us carefully analyse the options, fully aware of the advantages and disadvantages of each choice, and chose according to the situation, rather than showing obstinate single-mindedness. The choice is still, much more often than not, stepped bladder pads for clarinets. (Oboes, flutes, saxes are different.) However as I said before, eventually a solid polymer pad is certain to make bladder pads obsolete. It may well make cork pads obsolete too. Kraus's "omnipad" COULD be the model that heralds this change. Cork is already almost obsolete for most applications to keys and linkages (but certainly not for tenons).
Clarnibass, I respect you for taking this road of considering each situation on its merits; I believe it is vital when dealing with the huge spectrum of different brands and models out there, especially when the vast majority of customers have budgetary constraints. IN this issue, and the way you dealt with the bass clarinet vent issue, I think you have the makings of a top-rank technician of the future.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-26 23:07
"Cork is already almost obsolete for most applications to keys and linkages (but certainly not for tenons)"
I very rarely use natural cork for key feet or linkages - but still use it in some places, usually on open standing keys on oboes where rubco is too noisy for this kind of application (and isn't that easy to thin down by sanding), and I use rubco almost throughout.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-08-27 05:22
> *** Let us assume that a stepped pad is chosen so that it can be fitted with the felt slightly covering the edge of the key cup... *** <
Why do we have to assume this? How many percent of all clarinets made these days are large bore clarinets? Only large bore clarinets are the ones that require stepped pads (one pad on the UJ and usually four pads on the LJ) More than 98% of all clarinets made today are smaller bore clarinets and don't require or benefit from stepped pads.
> *** "there have been MANY where misalignment of the three lowest keys (i.e. key cup arms too long or two short, for an appropriate thickness of pad to seal centrally) has been evident. It is also common on other keys". *** <
Despite the level of the clarinet misaligned keys should be fixed. Sticking a large stepped pad and forget it is just lame excuse for any pro tech. Smaller pad = better venting. If you (just like clarnibass) decided to WORK AROUND THE PROBLEM INSTEAD OF FIXING IT that's your business! LOL
Do you even aware that pads used on clarinets at the end of the 19 century and until about 1930 were felt and leather pads? These pads were not stepped. The stepped pads appeared only when Selmer started 'messing' with big bore design. This design required larger tone holes without undercutting. Selmer could easily make larger key cups for larger tone holes but venting became a problem. So they made key cups as small as possible. The inner diameter of the cup was almost the same as the diameter tone hole. Stepped pad was covering only the thickness of the side wall of the cup. This way optimal venting was achieved. The basic idea was TO USE THE SMALLEST PAD POSSIBLE. Later these stepped pads somehow found its way on smaller bore clarinets. I don't know why it happen? Why anyone wants to use a bigger pad when smaller pad = better venting = better tone etc.
> *** Vytas, I guess you work only on professional instruments. In the 124+ brands of clarinets i.e. hundreds of different models) I have worked on, ... *** <
Do you think it's enough to learn the craft of repair and one day you can say to yourself: OK, from now on I will work ONLY on professional instruments? You've got to be kidding! Try it! And you'll go broke in a very short time. It's not that easy. I've been evolved with clarinets since 1974. I took woodwind repair and 'piano repair and tuning' 2 year course at music conservatory where I've studied clarinet in Europe. I've been called Jack of all trades. I have learned to repair woodwinds, pianos, electric guitars, electric guitar electronics, guitar tube amplifiers, clarinet mouthpieces etc. and no mechanic ever touched my car.
At first like every beginner I worked on any lousy student brand and wouldn't touch pro instrument. It took probably about seven years until I felt confident enough and ready to repair pro instrument for professional player. After a while I was doing all right but in 1990 I've moved to USA and had to start everything from the beginning repairing anything I could lay my hands on. One day in 2001 when I had to tell to my customer to wait five months until I get a chance to fix his clarinet. I thought: It's good but it's crazy! Since then I decided to work only on clarinets and latter, only on PRO soprano clarinets and PRO clarinet mouthpieces. After all of this I was fortunate enough to build my business like this without any advertisement or need to work on the 'other stuff'. I don't know how it works in NZ but here in the US if you screw-up once or your customer doesn't like the quality of your work you loose your customer. So, it's not that simple Gordon.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2006-08-27 05:23)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-08-27 05:55
"There is no specific case here. That was YOUR choice and how you decided to deal with this 'out of center key'. What you did is nothing but work around the problem instead of fixing it."
Like I said, I would allign the key and hole in other cases of the same problem. I took into consideration even things beyond the repair itself. In my country ALL repairers will use bladder pads for soprano clarinets, unless you specifically ask for leather (though no one that I know of ever asked). This clarinet will never be used by anyone in a level where they even care or know what pads they have, and if the person with this clarinet came to a different repairer (but that won't happen) he would put a bladder pad. So in this specific case I came to the conclusion it doesn't matter at all what solution I use since the end result is the same, so chose the simpler one. If it didn't work so perfectly I would correct the allignment.
"There's no such thing as "the throat G# tone hole is well ventilated on this clarinet" It's entirely up to technician or manufacturer how this key is set-up...... etc."
Ok let me rephrase. I meant that on this clarinet for the throat G# to be in tune and sound good, I chose the correct amount of ventilation, which is a lot, so the type of pad doesn't affect it. I did try a leather pad before (which didn't seal as I said) but the sound and tuning of the note with it was exactly the same as the bladder pad. My point was, that the type of pad (leather or bladder) didn't affect ventilation at all. I hope this is clearer.
Gordon, thanks very much. Like most clarinet makers, I also like bladder pads the most for how they feel and sound (I don't like too quiet or soft pads). I haven't tried cork pads yet, but if I understand correct they are mostly used for the closed pads, which almost don't affect the feel. From all the clarinetists that I like (mostly French) I think the sound the bladder pads make is almost a part of their clarinet sound culture. (Edit: by sound of the pads I mean the noise caused by the pads, not the sound of the clarinet).
What is polymer? I can't really understand from the picture what kind of material it is. Do these pads have the same feel as bladder pads (hardness), and how noisy/quiet are they?
By the way, I can't take credit for the bass clarinet changable vents idea. A hobbyst woodwind restorer from England with over 50 years experience in engineering thought of it. He is very creative and experimented with changing size and placement of register vents on his saxophones, so it was a mutual experiment.
Post Edited (2006-08-27 09:05)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: b.roke
Date: 2006-08-27 06:37
vytas - were you saying that all big bore clarinets must be fitted with stepped pads for adequate venting? you mentioned the older selmers - what about boosey and hawkes or the larger leblancs? i have a couple of the boosey's that need repadding so i am very interested in your answer.
and it is not that much different here in NZ. if anyone did an unsatisfactory job and was not able to correct it to my satisfaction i would, and do, go to someone else. and that applies to any work that i get done that i need to pay for. in fact reputation may be more important here as the customer base is so much smaller.
steadfastness stands higher than any success
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-27 07:39
I've repadded both B&H 1010 and Selmer Centered Tone clarinets with cork pads (and leather for the large pads on the bottom joint), the smaller pads are 9mm and around 11-11.5mm for the rings, cross F# key (and Acton vent) on the bottom joint - on Selmers the top joint side Eb/Bb tonehole is 6mm, though the crown of the bedplace is probably around 7mm so there is still plenty of pad surface left to seat on them with misaligned pad cups. But the bedplaces have to be absolutely perfect in order to achieve a perfect seal.
I've cork padded the top joint on a Leblanc basset horn, and even fitted cork pads right down to the Ab/Eb key on Leblanc LL and Concertos - these are around 13.5-14mm. The largest size cork pads I've used are 15.5mm on oboe bells for oboes that are completely cork padded, and have seen Loree bass oboes entirely cork padded as well - Buffet basses have a 16mm cork pad in the top fingerplate, so it is possible to get cork pads up to this diameter.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-08-27 10:56
Attachment: EVACloseUp.jpg (43k)
clarnibass wrote:
> What is polymer? I can't really understand from the picture what kind of
> material it is. Do these pads have the same feel as bladder pads (hardness),
> and how noisy/quiet are they?
Polymer is a generic term for a whole family of materials. I don't know what the pros in here are using, I've had great success with closed-cell EVA foam. The specimen in the attached picture is 3mm thick and was used to repad a metal clarinet.
The material is comparable to felt/skin with some notable differences:
- It won't ever stick to the tonehole, makes it well suited for those normally-closed "wet" keys.
- But unlike felt/skin it does not really "wear in" which makes it a bit trickier to use on the large keys on the lower joint. But it still has sufficient travel/softness to work with less-than-perfect bedplaces.
- And as it is a tad stiffer than their traditional counterparts it can be noisier on those keys - they close with a faint pop. Probably for the same reason cork is rarely used there.
- you must create your own cardboard backing, and you must be careful with hot glue.
It also is excellent as a silencer where cork can be too noisy.
Dirt cheap (some 5$ for a 30x40cm sheet).
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-08-27 12:53
Clarnibass, you wrote
> What is polymer? I can't really understand from the picture what kind of
> material it is. Do these pads have the same feel as bladder pads (hardness),
> and how noisy/quiet are they?
Were you referring to the pads I described (in my photo) in my post of 2006-08-25? If so, then they are rather different from what tictactux describes and shows in a photo.
"Polymer", in lay terms, is a more technical term referring to what people call 'plastic" (the noun), although it can include some natural materials. For more details, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer
Quite a few polymer materials have now been tried for woodwind pads. Most have been fairly quickly rejected by technicians with a reputation for quality. The "Omni" pads from Kraus (in my photo) are the most promising I have yet seen.
The slightly narrower diameter part is a hard, solid, rigid plastic. The slightly larger diameter part, that will probably overlap the edge of the key cup, is a high-density, firm, "plastic" foam (i.e. many tiny bubbles of gas within it), possibly similar in APPEARANCE to the photo provided by tictactux. However that is probably where the similarity ends.
In the Kraus pad, this foam part has a smooth surface without cut 'bubbles'. The foam on my larger (17 mm) pad in the photo is only about 1.35 mm thick - total thickness 3.2 mm), and for the smaller (8 mm) pad, the foam seems to be only 1 mm, and total thickness 2.2 mm. I believe they are available in different thicknesses of foam.
The foam is securely bonded (at manufacture) to the hard plastic backing, possibly by superglue.
This foam DOES take a seat, which suggests it is a different material from tictactux's.
I have not used any yet, but they would seem to have properties that would make them quiet, certainly quieter than cork, yet not have a significant 'spongy' feel. They are certainly unlike any previous attempts at polymer pads that I have seen in the past.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-08-27 13:47
Author: Vytas (---.ipt.aol.com - ISP in United States)
Date: 2006-08-27 05:22
I wrote
> *** Let us assume that a stepped pad is chosen so that it can be fitted with the felt slightly covering the edge of the key cup... *** <
Vytas wrote
>Why do we have to assume this?<
Because the topic of my post was some pros and cons of STEPPED pads, and because there is little reason to use STEPPED pads unless the installer intends having the felt slightly overflowing from the I.D. of the key cup, as I described.
Vytas wrote
>How many percent of all clarinets made these days are large bore clarinets? <
Quite a few, if you are in a country that is not rather fixated on Buffets!
Vytas wrote
>Only large bore clarinets are the ones that require stepped pads<
I disagree, The requirement is based on the diameter of the tone hole relative to the inside diameter of the key cup, as has been well explained previously. The requirement also depends on the concentricity of the tone hole edge with the key cup. More on this later.
Vytas wrote
>More than 98% of all clarinets made today are smaller bore clarinets and don't require or benefit from stepped pads<.
I don't agree that this is a fact. Can we simply agree to differ?
I wrote
> *** "there have been MANY where misalignment of the three lowest keys (i.e. key cup arms too long or two short, for an appropriate thickness of pad to seal centrally) has been evident. It is also common on other keys". *** <
Vytas wrote
>Despite the level of the clarinet misaligned keys should be fixed. Sticking a large stepped pad and forget it is just lame excuse for any pro tech. Smaller pad = better venting. If you (just like clarnibass) decided to WORK AROUND THE PROBLEM INSTEAD OF FIXING IT that's your business! LOL<
The rude laughter aside....
It is an issue of a careless manufacturer, either mounting key posts too close or too far from the tone hole, or else an issue of a key cup arm being too long or too short.
One logical fix is to cut the key cup arm, either shorten it or add material, silver-solder the parts together again, tidy up the surface, and re-silver plate if cosmetics demand. Yes, I have done this, but it is certainly not a sensible approach for customers on a limited budget when there is a very easy, reliable solution in the form of choosing a stepped pad.
Vytas wrote
>Do you even aware that pads used on clarinets at the end of the 19 century and until about 1930 were felt and leather pads? These pads were not stepped.<
Yes, I am well aware, and the pad construction was totally different, leather sewn together at the back, with no cardboard backing. The concept was a pad domed in the centre. The leather was porous This design concept was so different that it really is a bit of a red herring here. It typically sealed poorly and unreliably compared with modern pads. No wonder stepped bladder pads were introduced!
>The stepped pads appeared only when Selmer started 'messing' with big bore design.<
The first time I encountered stepped pads was on Buffet clarinets over 40 years ago. They were of an exceptional standard compared with what Buffet is using today. Was that after Selmer's big bore? What about B&H big bore? Pardon my ignorance and memory.
>Later these stepped pads somehow found its way on smaller bore clarinets. I don't know why it happen? Why anyone wants to use a bigger pad when smaller pad = better venting = better tone etc.<
The edge of even a stepped bladder pad is rounded, possibly just as much as the limited rounding that is possible with a cork pad with little cork to spare. Furthermore, the stepped bladder pad better covers that sharp key cup edge, which partly contributes to the air turbulence that plays such a big part in the venting issue. So all things considered, the stepped bladder pad may well cause less turbulence, than the cork pad with very slight rounding along with the sharp key cup edge.
The fact is still, the vast majority of technicians around the world use mainly bladder pads, and the better ones of those technicians at least, do not produce clarinets with poor venting, any more than they would with cork pads or leather pads. There is no perfect pad yet; each type of pad has it pros and cons. So I am surprised that any experienced technician would not acknowledge this.
> I don't know how it works in NZ but here in the US if you screw-up once or your customer doesn't like the quality of your work you loose your customer.<
I don't know if the community I serve is smaller than yours or not, but if you screw up in a relatively smaller community, word spreads fast to everybody; you don't lose one customer; you lose dozens. The main way I lose customers for years at a time is that their clarinets play so reliably, so there can't be too much wrong with the bladder pads that most of them have.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-08-27 15:44
b.roke wrote:
> *** vytas - were you saying that all big bore clarinets must be fitted with stepped pads for adequate venting? you mentioned the older selmers - what about boosey and hawkes or the larger leblancs? i have a couple of the boosey's that need repadding so i am very interested in your answer. ***<
No, Not exactly. I said that only big bore instruments like Selmer CT requires only one stepped pad on the UJ (thrill Eb/Bb) and usually four pads on the LJ. In the earlier thread I've mentioned that I DO NOT use stepped pads for any instrument AT ALL. For any big bore instrument (for the above mentioned keys) I use slightly larger leather pad than the size of the inner diameter of the cup. In these circumstances the larger pad acts the same way as any stepped bladder pad. Remember that big bore instruments are not build to the same specification so there is no strict rules here. For example N-series Selmer CT have slightly different size tone holes than lets say Q-series CT. The later one has lager tone holes and would require treatment as I described above (or stepped pad)
Chris pretty much answered your question. His answer basically supports what I was saying about stepped bladder pads all along.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kev182
Date: 2006-08-27 15:58
My teacher reccomended i get cork pads in the UJ as well.
When I called Morrie Backun and asked about replacing my pads with cork... he was really adament on valentino pads and said cork was old fashioned. He said they last just as long, quiter, non sticking and he had put them on Ricardo's and Larry Comb's clarinet and they really liked them. I actually still have almost all valentino pads on my clarinet from an old overhaul and so far they have been amazing. No sticking problems what so ever, and they look brand new. Haha, then he told me his price and how he was booked for 4 months... lmao O_O i hung up
trills seem a tiny been mushy compared to cork, but i perssonally prefer that kind of sound.
So, maybe try valentino? some love them and some hate them..
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-27 18:47
"...and said cork was old fashioned."
I resent that statement when I hear it.
I was told this by a repairer in my area when I showed him my old Selmer N-series CT which I'd just rebuilt, replated, bushed every smaller tonehole with PVC, fitted new screws throughout, etc. etc. and cork padded as I had the ideal toneholes for cork pads which were my first choice of pads - skin pads aren't an option for me, I can't stand the things.
I've been partially cork padding clarinets since 1987 and most big named companies had previously only been putting a cork pad in ths speaker key (and Yamaha even cork padded both 8ve keys on their 61 series saxes in the '70s), and only really started adding more cork pads since the mid '90s - now you see both Buffet and Leblanc using them freely, so it's hardly 'old fashioned' - leather pads are 'old fashioned', and the repairer in question that told me cork pads were 'old fashioned' only said that because he couldn't manage to get cork pads to seat and threw in the towel after failing to seat just one! And out of the three main types of pads, leather are by far the easiest to work with.
If cork pads are 'old fashioned', why don't you see cork pads on old fashioned clarinets? They have leather pads, in some sort or other.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-08-27 19:14
Attachment: EVAVeryCloseUp.jpg (50k)
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
> The slightly larger diameter part (...) is a high-density, firm, "plastic" foam
> (i.e. many tiny bubbles of gas within it), possibly similar in APPEARANCE to
> the photo provided by tictactux. (...) In the Kraus pad, this foam part has
> a smooth surface without cut 'bubbles'.
You are right, there are indeed cut bubbles on the surface - I didn't notice them with the naked eye. The enclosed amateurish photo shows how big they are (the metal spear is a sewing pin); my finger - good enough to close other holes - is really jagged in comparison.
> This foam DOES take a seat, which suggests it is a different material from
> tictactux's.
So it won't ever recover from that seat? The EVA specimen in question takes anywhere from 1 hour to 1 day to fully recover, depending on how hard and how long it was pressed into seat (can provide a trill key photo if you like).
If you'd like to touch/feel a sample yourself, drop me a note. I have quite a bit of leftovers.
And thank you for the information about the omni pads - heard about them here and there but never saw a close-up or a description beyond that of "new approach".
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-27 19:32
When I started at Howarth I used to use Pisoni synthetic pads, these were a high density white foam and they worked very well - they were easy to seat, made the joints completely airtight, were nice and flat and silent.
But a newer batch that came through had larger bubbles throughout and on the surface making them leak like sieves, so it was back to cork pads as these synthetic were abandoned. Another failure were the brown Valentino pads which were also porous, though the white ones worked well after heating them up (with a hairdryer) to flatten them out.
Another factor in abandoning synthetic pads was snobbery - some teachers thought synthetic pads were cheap, didn't like the look of them and thought they shouldn't be used on student oboes, though there was no denying that when they worked (before the quality dropped), they worked.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-08-27 22:16
Quotes from tictactux:
> ....You are right, there are indeed cut bubbles on the surface - I didn't notice them with the naked eye. The enclosed amateurish photo shows how big they are (the metal spear is a sewing pin); my finger - good enough to close other holes - is really jagged in comparison.<
I want a pad surface as flat as irregular as possible. Unless I press really hard on an open hole flute, or quite a bit harder than I would like for a clarinet, then pads do not seal - air leaks along my finger print grooves. This must vary depending on the hardness of the skin's surface. It is the reason I gave up open hole flutes for personal use.
> Gordon: This foam DOES take a seat, which suggests it is a different material from tictactux's. Tictactux: So it won't ever recover from that seat? The EVA specimen in question takes anywhere from 1 hour to 1 day to fully recover, depending on how hard and how long it was pressed into seat (can provide a trill key photo if you like).
By "seat", I mean a very shallow indentation circle that is stable and permanent, which both flattens out minute irregularities in the pad surface, and also conforms to microscopic irregularities in the tone hole edge. I stress "stable and permanent". This seems to conflict with any behaviour such as "takes anywhere from 1 hour to 1 day to fully recover"
These Omni pads seem to take such a seat.
But not the ever-increasing seat of some other polymer pads that have been on the market. These very deep seats, be they on polymer pads or leather pads (which is common) or bladder pads, seem to encourage air turbulence that interferes with good venting.
Post Edited (2006-08-28 08:42)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kev182
Date: 2006-08-28 07:37
I totally agree with you Chris, those are Backun's words not mine. I'm still planning on getting my upper joint completely corked
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-28 08:12
Kevin,
I'd suggest having the smaller pads on the bottom joint done in cork as well while you're at it - especially the cross B/F# 'sliver' key as water gets into this tonehole.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
