 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-08-18 00:38
Shouldn't clarinet makers offer different key designs for different sized hands? I'm talking about mainly pinky keys.
Am I the only one asking this?
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-08-18 00:45
I agree!
Snow skis come in various lengths, width and stiffness to match the needs of various sized athletes.
Bicycles and woodwind instruments seem to be places where one-size doesn't fit many folks very well.
Bob Phillips
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2006-08-18 01:40
Sure they could, but what I've read lately on the BB people are kerfetching about MSP (minimum selling price) now. Add a few hundred to possibly thousand per unit selling price in order to defray the costs for the various tooling and manufacture.
jbutler
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2006-08-18 01:45
Any of the custom instrument makers/servicers (Chadash, Fox, Seggelke among others) would probably be happy to customize one of their instruments or possibly another makers to fit your hands specifically. Just be prepared to pay accordingly.
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-08-18 01:54
John.....I admire the attempt, and it must be the Texan in you, but it is kvetch (monosyllable).....kvetching.
Then again, I say "yiz" for Y'all, so it is off the the dialect coach I go.
Back to topic:
Sax players add bumpers to the RH side keys to reach them easier.
I had a clarinet sent to me from a gentleman who glued cork risers to the top of the left hand pinkie keys. He had arthritis, and the risers helped.
It worked well for him until the arthritis got the best of him, and he sold the horn.
Moral of the story......A little glue goes a long way. You too can be an inventor.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-08-18 03:39
And let's not forget, it's acoustic necessity, not ergonomics, that defines the diameter and spacing of the toneholes. So there's a fairly limited range of key customization that can readily be done, financial considerations notwithstanding.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-08-18 04:03
I should clarify a little bit about what I suggested at the beginning.
Of course you cannot change tone hole sizes or position to make them
comfortable,but I think that at least they can offer 2 or 3 different sizes and
placement of the pinkie keys. That wouldn't require any new toolings at all.
All they have to do is to install different set of about 6 keys at the bottom joints.
I think this is quite feasible. If you argue about cost,then everything in the world would come in one size.
I'm willing to pay ,say ,about $200 extra for much more comfortable key arrangement.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-08-18 07:54
Pianists seem to manage well enough with one size fits all.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-08-18 08:18
David Peacham wrote:
> Pianists seem to manage well enough with one size fits all.
And they're likely to suffer less from GAS syndrome...
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-08-18 11:40
Dear Koo Young Chung,
I would like to answer your query in a different way. I have been making a self-study of hand position for the last two years. It started with what I recall being well meaning advice about the position of the thumb rest. Some have suggested that placing the thumbrest opposite the middle of the first tone hole yields a better finger position/angle (you know, the fingertips slanting down from the hand). My problem with this is that it made accessing the two low sidekeys all but impossible without lifting the clarinet (subconsciously of course) to get to them. This led to a great deal of stress in the hand. Now I place the thumb rest opposite the top of the middle hole and have no problems at all.
That placement also puts your hand closer to the lower keys - this makes the reach for ANY size hand a piece of cake.
I then applied my vast experience (LOL) to my left hand and decided that the index finger movement to the "A" key is really a lateral movement (there are muscle at the base of the finger that move it up and down or side to side - note, there are NO ROLLLING muscles!).
Now, I place my left hand so that the fingers are perpendicular to the clarinet so the "A" key is merely a flick of the index finger (no chance of any wrist movement and associated misallignment of the second and third fingers with their respective holes at all). The other great benefit is that this brings the pinky much closer to the keys. Now any size hand can grab these keys without any problem.
Everyone just tell me how wrong this is all at once.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-18 12:33
I was told by my clarinet teacher when I statred having lessons from him that I have sax or oboe players hands in that I play with my fingers angled downwards (as I had been playing mostly sax at that time but felt I needed to study clarinet, and to do it properly) - though I do make sure when I play clarinet my fingers are perpendicular to the instrument rather than angled downwards.
But on oboe/cor and saxes I still play with angled fingers.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-08-18 12:41
Koo Young, you do make an interesting point and , as I recall, you are an instrument technician. (?). What you seem to be suggesting is a rearrangement essentially for people with smaller hands....possibly children.
I'm under the impression that the Lyons clarinet is/was marketed for this segment for many years. And...perhaps the C clarinet tends to serve this market also, Yikes!, the Eflat.
Bob Draznik
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Author: D
Date: 2006-08-18 17:01
Last time I spoke to the guys at Hanson Clarinets they were thinking about this very topic. Don't know how far they have got with it, but it has at least been considered.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-08-18 18:18
Koo Young is absolutely right that modifying the pinky keys is feasible and involves nothing acoustical, and I hope that someone can come up with an economical way to implement such a feature (e.g. a few different models of clarinet having various arrangements of pinky keys to fit various hand sizes/shapes). However, just as big an issue with many players is the ability to comfortably reach and cover the ring keys --- this is where acoustical design unfortunately dictates the ergonomic design, at least to a certain extent. Certainly there are some plateau clarinets out there that attempt to solve that problem, but as you can imagine they introduce a whole host of new problems along the way.
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Author: D
Date: 2006-08-18 18:32
I think they were talking about having a set of longer and shorter pinky keys, and the student model having a slightly different layout so that the right hand third finger was easier to reach.
mmmmm, maybe i was dreaming it!
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Author: mtague
Date: 2006-08-18 19:07
Heh. Maybe along with adjustable thumb rests we'll have adjustable pinky key lengths.
Personally, I haven't had a problem reaching any Bb clarinet keys. I could comfortably reach a leblanc bass clarinets keys, but the selmer USA plastic bass was difficult. I don't recall having issues with the tenor sax either. I have pretty long fingers though (been told I have the hands of a piano player).
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2006-08-18 20:21
The hard part of the left hand pinky key mod will be getting the C#/G# out of the way without making it useless.
There have been plateau key models (like many flutes and oboes), but they never seemed to catch on. Even the used intermediates (plateau Noblets for example) seem to be priced hundreds more than standard models, which sort of defeats the kid's clarinet market idea.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-08-18 20:30
Well said [as usual], Dave. Having a number of Selmers, and with relatively small hands, I've had only small problem with open-hole cls, Bb and A, where "sometimes" thumb rest inversion" helps "feel" and improves 3rd finger cover of the ring, and manip. of the ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif) E/B touch. Here, the R-H reach for my F B low Eb touch is at least adequate, BUT, on my plateau's, Sel 's alto and bass, I do have reach problems, for the low Eb on alto, and the alternate Ab/Eb [L-H] on bass. With "slippery" keys on alto, I use small cutouts of rubberized adhesive tape and actually slightly lower[!] thumb position via a TR "cushion" . For reaching the [L-H] Alt. Ab/Eb [bass], the real solution is prob. touch-lengthing, so I may try several methods. This fine exchange of problems/solutions should help all of us, in partic. our GREAT repairers where significant/difficult key modification is needed. Much Luck to all. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-08-18 20:37
Per the kid's clarinet market idea - a recorder with a clarinet mouthpiece would be nice; something along the xaphoon idea, but with a stock Eb or Bb mouthpiece, to build up a proper embouchure (and have a significantly wider dynamic range) yet still have convenient C recorder fingerings.
Dreamed about some creative PVC tubing, but there's a lot of experimenting involved to get it halfway okay in tune. Unfortunately not enough time...sigh.
--
Ben
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-08-18 22:13
Ben - this has been done by Moeck: http://www.moeck.com/ and click on Sopranklarinette.
Not a lot cheaper than a real clarinet, though.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-08-18 22:57
David Peacham wrote:
> Ben - this has been done by Moeck: http://www.moeck.com/ and
> click on Sopranklarinette.
Interesting, thanks.
> Not a lot cheaper than a real clarinet, though.
Ouch, indeed. Well okay, they're wooden. (But I don't want to restart that wood-or-plastic debate again)
--
Ben
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-08-18 23:54
Hi,Everyone
I really appreciate your opinion and advices.
I'm a violin maker/repairman over 25 years,so I know a little bit about
string instruments. What happens many times even to professional string
players is that when violin is not set up properly they usually know/feel
even though they don't know what's wrong with their instr.
For example if the neck is thicker or thinner than standard
measurements by more than 1 mm they notice,and for the string heights
most players' comfort range is less than 0.5 mm.
I'm not clarinet technician,even though I tried many small things.
And I'm a beginner level in playing,but I always thought that my R13's
little finger keys seem spread out too much.
I have a medium sized hand and I can manage but it could be easier
if the keys are places a little closer (in my case.)
(As for piano,my wife have difficulty reaching octaves.I think slightly curved
(from low to high notes)key board will be more comfortable to players even
though it is not very practical to make those crazy things.)
I hope that designers of big 4 are reading this topic.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-08-26 20:00
A friend of mine had her keys moved for her small hands. My teacher at school had the opposite problem, with hands like pounds of sausages - used to prefer playing bass clarinet and alto flute. Bass looked more like an alto sax when he played it...
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2006-08-26 21:23
One thing that I thought of when thinking about customizing my key lengths were the thoughts of having to switch to another instrument. If you can get used to the "standard" (although there are SLIGHT variations from maker to maker) set up of the keys and levers on a clarinet, this would minimize the problem if you needed to switch and use someone elses instrument because something happened to your own right before a concert.
Granted, there are slight differences between the key feel of the big four. My leblanc clarinet feels slightly different and there are noticeable (to me) differences in the placement of certain levers between the leblanc and an R13. Even bigger is the difference in placement of the alt Eb key between my Opus and an R13 Prestige.
But if you were to have custom work done to your clarinet or have something done to make it personally customized to your own specs, what would happen when your clarinet breaks down somehow right before a concert? Now you have to play a concert not only on a different horn accoustically, but with different levers. Which might mean a few finger slips in crucial moments. Something I don't want to worry about.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: kev182
Date: 2006-08-27 16:14
Having a one size fits all keying system i think is the way to go. Otherwise, you could get away with absolutely horrible hand positions. Teachers would have to change the way they teach fingering... There would be less standardized fingering methods
seriously, our hand sizes don't differ THAT much.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-08-27 19:25
kevl82 wrote:
> seriously, our hand sizes don't differ THAT much.
maybe not the hand sizes, but the angles at which eg pinkies can be spread away. I have difficulties reaching the low Eb key on my Alto.
--
Ben
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2006-08-27 19:36
Going back to the "oboe" hand position...
I play clarinet with my left fingers all angled down in this manner. I feel that it's more comfy for the A key and I have no problems finding the other finger holes lower on the UJ.
And as for not moving the wrist when playing the A key, I feel that it's absolutely necessary to use the larger muscles of the forearm and wrist in order not to develop tendonitis.
Katrina
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-08-27 21:44
I'm not very comfortable with R13 pinkie keys.
I really have to reach to the outside. I wish they were smaller and closer.
For me Leblanc is better as far as finger position is concerned.
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Author: Malcolm Martland
Date: 2006-08-29 15:48
Plateau clarinets were not necessarily designed for small hands.
I have 3 Bb plateau clarinets: Noblet Artist, Lucien Bassi and Malerne. The Noblet is the same size as a regular Noblet but the Malerne and Bassi bodies are longer (about half an inch) and heavier. The Malerne and Noblet are both in excellent playing order but I find the Noblet almost too cramped. The keywork on the Malerne is superb with proportionally wider spaced keys - fits my large hands better.
I'm still looking for an A plateau if anyone knows of any.
Thanks,
Malcolm
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