 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Imperial Zeppelin
Date: 2006-08-16 14:04
This may be old news, but I nearly had a coronary when I checked on the price for a Bb Prestige at WWBW. It had gone up over $800 since late April when I bought one. The list price, however, was unchanged. When I called to ask I was told that Buffet is now controlling the lowest price that there instruments can be sold at, something that Yamaha has be doing.
Prices at Sam Ash are the same. So bottom line is that now instead of gettting 50% off of list, the best you're going to do is 40%.
Post Edited (2006-08-16 14:16)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-08-16 15:13
You don't have to buy a Buffet if the price is not to your liking. There are many other fine clarinets out there, new and used.
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Author: kev182
Date: 2006-08-16 16:18
wow, that blows! i was just about to get an A and possibly a new Bb =(
you can get many other very fine clarinets, but none will be like a buffet
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-08-16 17:02
Dang, and I thought that it was just the slippage of the US$ vs the Euro.
Bob Phillips
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-08-16 18:18
US vendors are not happy - personal communciation - with the new policy which apparently does not apply to Canada or Mexico.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-08-16 18:34
There was an enormous flurry about this on the Klarinet list not long ago...accusations of price-fixin' a'flyin'!
All the more reason to consider LeBlanc...(and, erm, you know, those others, too!) :-)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-08-17 04:56
Does anyone know if this applies to anywhere other than the USA? Prices here got expensive, but that is for all companies and not aso much more, just the regular "everything gets more and more expensive over time". Almost quarter of the price could increase because of the Dollar vs. Euro, it was too big a difference for dealers to keep the prices the same, but the prices increased by about 50% or even more. Does Buffet do this to stop the big stores to compete with small ones and almost making them close?
I heard in Paris some stores might be out of business because of the WW&BW store that opened there.
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2006-08-17 13:54
I thought that so-called "fair trade" pricing, in which the manufacturer in effect sets the retail price, or limits to it, was considered an illegal anti-competitive practice here in the US.
Steve Epstein
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-08-17 15:27
Steve Epstein wrote:
> I thought that so-called "fair trade" pricing, in which the
> manufacturer in effect sets the retail price, or limits to it,
> was considered an illegal anti-competitive practice here in the
> US.
No - that's what I thought, too.
Only if there's collusion between companies. A single company is free to set minimum prices - at least that's what the courts have generally said.
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Author: joannew
Date: 2006-08-17 16:03
>> I heard in Paris some stores might be out of business because of the WW&BW store that opened there.
Very unlikely. The WW&BW here is quite small, and there are LOTS of musicians in Paris! WW&BW is next to the Conservatoire, so I'm sure they do good business, but there is a very high concentration of independent music shops clustered along rue de Rome which won't be affected by one more shop across town. Many people anyway prefer to deal with one of the numerous small private workshops, which are found mostly by word of mouth.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2006-08-18 03:46
A lot of that price increase has to do with the continuing falling value of the U.S. dollar against the euro. Europe is pricing itself out of world markets in many sectors.
Life (and international trade) is like a cess pool; you get out of it just about what you put into it.
b/
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2006-08-18 18:35
I just got my latest WWBW catalog, the price of an R13 prestige ($4800!!!) is now more than top of the line Leblanc or Selmer. I am not sure Buffet can ride the fame wave for very long if they price their instruments higher than the competition. Even hand made Chadash horns are cheaper.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2006-08-18 20:29
As I recall, the prices published in the catalogs and on the websites are the lowest prices the sellers are allowed to publish. They may not be the lowest price at which they can sell the item. Has anyone called ww&bw to verify that the published prices are indeed the best prices they can offer?
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-08-18 21:13
Jack Kissinger wrote:
> As I recall, the prices published in the catalogs and on the
> websites are the lowest prices the sellers are allowed to
> publish. They may not be the lowest price at which they can
> sell the item. Has anyone called ww&bw to verify that the
> published prices are indeed the best prices they can offer?
Today I called WW/BW to inquire about their selling prices of R13's and whether they were offering any flexibility in the MSP they now show in their catalog.
I spoke to a very knowledgeable and sincere rep who knew about the recent Buffet price structure but was not 100% sure about if there was any "wiggle room" in their published prices. He didn't think so, but still offered to ask his boss while I waited.
When he came back on the phone, he told me that his supervisor said that their published prices are absolutely "locked in stone" and they are not permitted (by Buffet) to go below that pricing. His boss said that if they sell below those prices, Buffet could potentially pull their line of clarinets from WW/BW.
Thus, the R13 w/nickel keys is $2567 - not a dollar less.
Similarly, all other R13's (and higher models) follow the prices shown in their latest catalog.
BTW - The rep did say that the price structure of E11's is much freer and they will work to better any competitive offer...GBK
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Author: pewd
Date: 2006-08-18 21:36
less than a year ago one of my students paid $1699.00 for a nickel plated R-13 , from WW&BW.
A 51% increase in one year is a heck of a deal if you're selling stuff.
It would be interesting to see if Buffet can sustain this, or will they lose sales to cheaper competitors...
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2006-08-19 06:19
Mark Charette wrote:
> Steve Epstein wrote:
>
> > I thought that so-called "fair trade" pricing, in which the
> > manufacturer in effect sets the retail price, or limits to
> it,
> > was considered an illegal anti-competitive practice here in
> the
> > US.
>
> No - that's what I thought, too.
>
> Only if there's collusion between companies. A single company
> is free to set minimum prices - at least that's what the courts
> have generally said.
Which means (as I understand it): Buffet is free to do this for now. But if ALL the major clarinet manufacturers end up doing it, then there can be anti-trust suits, but if they don't, then Buffet risks losing market share. And even if just one or two other major maufacturers do it, resulting in an increased demand for the clarinets made by those companies not involved, and that drives up their prices by decreasing supply vs demand, that would still be considered an illegal anti-competitive practice.
But someone would have to sue.
Steve Epstein
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-08-19 07:51
Okay, Buffet sets a new MSRP. This doesn't say anything about the price at which they sell to the sales channels. In the past, by looking at MSRP and street price, the margin must have been close to 50%, the dealer ending up with maybe 2 or 5%.
So why would anyone want to publish an MSRP at all if everyone and their brother is going to kill it anyway? IBM back then didn't publish an MSRP any more (for a certain product line only) and all the dealers got very angry because they couldn't publish a "moon price" and a hefty "50% off" tag any more.
If I were Buffet I'd let the dealers wrestle at their own game. Don't publish prices any more, let the dealers decide at what price they want to sell. True competition without the backing of a "x % off MSRP" sticker that doesn't say anything anyway.
If Buffet doesn't want to go that route, they must enforce a minimum price, also to protect the one man show shops who can't afford to drop the pants price wise. If the "dealer price" stays at roughly the same, this means a healthy 30..50% sales margin with which one can play and throw in freebies and good services to convince the buyer, instead of fireselling at 2% and then have to bazaar-chaffer for an extra case or a wad of score sheet paper.
The customer will pay more for the naked clarinet. Dunno if he pays very much more all considered when he leaves the shop, though.
--
Ben
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-08-19 07:55
Steve - I think it is only ilegal if the companies decide together to sell at a certain price. For example if today Buffet, Selmer, Leblanc and Yamaha decided not to sell any professional clarinet less than $3,000 that stops competition and is ilegal as far as I know. But if each of these companies set a minimum price regardless of the other companies that is legal, since they can still allow competition. That's why it is hard to prove. For example all cellular phone companies here have the exact same high prices, but no one has been able to do something about it, because they haven't actually sat down together and decided to do this, it is like a silent agreement. I'm not sure if USA laws are the same.
It is a strange situation, where most high level instruments like the top Leblancs, Yamahas, Selmers, and even the smaller companies like Eaton or Rossi (also Chadash that someone mentioned), are now (a lot) cheaper than the top Buffet models. The difference between the Selmer and Buffet bass clarinets is now over $1,000. Does anyone have any clue why this happened suddenly? Buffet had very competitive prices for many years.
Post Edited (2006-08-19 08:40)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-08-19 14:50
Steve Epstein wrote:
> Which means (as I understand it): Buffet is free to do this for
> now. But if ALL the major clarinet manufacturers end up doing
> it, then there can be anti-trust suits,
That isn't what I said. Note the word 'collusion'. If two or more compaines collude to set prices then there might be the basis for an anti-trust suit.
I mean, when one gas station raises its price, all the others do, too. As long as collusion between the companies can't be proven, there's no anti-trust suit ...
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-08-19 15:00
I don't think that the European Union is pricing themselves out of the world market.
I think that the US is letting the value of its currency slip, making all imports from European countires (and Candada!) cost more.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2006-08-19 19:32
Mark Charette wrote:
>
> That isn't what I said. Note the word 'collusion'. If two or
> more compaines collude to set prices then there might be
> the basis for an anti-trust suit.
>
> I mean, when one gas station raises its price, all the others
> do, too. As long as collusion between the companies can't be
> proven, there's no anti-trust suit ...
Okay. More to the point, though, who is actually benefitting from Buffet setting a floor on retail prices? Buffet, or the large internet retailers? Seems to me there may be collusion of a different sort: The large retailers get Buffet to agree to a price floor so they are guaranteed a minimum percentage profit on all sales.
If that is the case, we may see "evidence" in the form of Leblanc, Selmer, Yamaha, and the smaller manufacturers' horns becoming "scarce".
Just speculating.
Steve Epstein
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-08-19 19:37
Steve Epstein wrote:
> Okay. More to the point, though, who is actually benefitting
> from Buffet setting a floor on retail prices? Buffet, or the
> large internet retailers?
Or the small mom & pop shops, who no longer have to worry about being heavily undercut on retail price by the high-volume Internet shops. I don't know Buffet's discount based on quantity, but there's a good chance that the Internet retailers will make more than the small shops per instrument, but perhaps it'll allow the smaller shops to survive. I don't know what will happen.
Depending on markup, Buffet may or may not be benefitting ... but I wouldn't bet on them making less money than before.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-08-19 19:51
Steve Epstein wrote:
> If that is the case, we may see "evidence" in the form of
> Leblanc, Selmer, Yamaha, and the smaller manufacturers' horns
> becoming "scarce".
>
> Just speculating.
CONSPIRACY THREAD! ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Seriously: I don't think the effect may be all that big, for either party: If I were a "small" retailer (kinda Mom and Pop Woodwind shoppe) I were suddenly competitive with the big internet retailers - being "forced" to sell at a given retail price I could throw in extended warranties ("we'll fix it for two years" or "1st year maintenance included") without breaking my own bank. The big ones can't sell over the price alone any longer, they would have to think of similar "customer-binding" ideas. All in all, when the storm has eased up, we'll see five year maintenance plans, free airport-proof carrying cases and whatnot. We'll see that price isn't everything and closefistedness isn't all that hip.
Smaller manufacturer can outbid the "big ones" without having a stern bank accountant at their door the next day. Maybe Buffet consciously wants to make room for the "lesser" competitors and concentrate on the profitable pro segment, maybe they dream about buying themselves into the entry market with a new student line and want to protect their own established brand name from becoming firesale fodder.
Marketing sometimes works in mysterious ways. We have seen a writing on the wall but are not aware of a whole new library behind the scenes...
--
Ben
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-08-19 20:06
OK, someone mentioned that this new pricing doesn't affect Canada or Mexico.
If this is true, couldn't some of us buy a Buffet clarinet at Clarinetfest '07 in Vancouver next year and not have to worry about pricing? If we bought one from a Canadian dealer?
Just a thought, anyone feel free to shoot it down or whatnot.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-08-19 21:20
Clarinetgirl06 wrote:
> If we bought one from a Canadian dealer?
I have seen more "we don't ship outside of xyz" than I have used reeds so far. There aren't only pricing restrictions, there are also shipping restrictions imposed on dealers, pardon, business partners. I don't mean to mention a specific manufacturer, but these restrictions exist, most probably to protect the local markets (with potentially higher end user prices).
--
Ben
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Author: Karen C
Date: 2006-08-23 01:24
Hi All,
Buffet's price contol has definitely put a wrinkle in my purchasing an E11 for my daughter. The price jumped from $600's to now over $800 since last week! I just got the quote from wwbw.
Does anyone have any other clarinet brand that's equivalent to the E11? My local music store in NJ told me that all the clarinet brands raised their prices so Buffet did the same. I don't know whether to believe him... She's been playing for the last 2 years.
Any suggestions would be helpful!
thanks,
Karen
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Author: Imperial Zeppelin
Date: 2006-08-23 02:12
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that WWBW felt that they could be a bit more lenient on E series pricing. You may want to call and talk to the woodwind manager to see if he can cut you a bigger break. It seems that there is no room for negotiation on the professional horns.
That being said, the E11 is a fine horn for the younger player who is getting serious. My D got hers outfitted with an R13 barrel after 1 year of lessons since it seemed she was destined to continue. As a matter of fact we just sold that horn this past January for $500. I should probably contact the buyer and tell them about how this latest price increase makes that an even better deal than they got.
Since our middle school band director "brokered" our selling of the E11, you may want to ask the folks around you if they know of any good E11s that may be available.
Post Edited (2006-08-23 02:13)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-08-23 02:41
As I wrote earlier in this thread, WW/BW is flexible in their pricing of the E11.
The quote I was given from them was much less than $800.
I would call them again with some competitve offers from other dealers and ask them to beat the price.
The rep I spoke to was very knowledgeable and seemed sincere in their effort to work with the customer on E11 pricing.
Unfortunately, that is presently not the case with R13's ...GBK
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-08-23 02:49
The unknown factor is if our brothers in Canada or Mexico may have shipping stations across the border in the U.S. (which I know to be true) and are not under the price controls in their home ports - this has some of the big guys worried. Could used R-13's suddenly become more valuable?
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-08-23 04:46
Okay, if there is a minimum price, I don't think it's untoward to ask Buffet for minimum quality control. If every horn that came out of the factory was perfect I could understand a minimum price. If I didn't have to have my brand new horn overhauled before it was playable I might not mind a higher price. How many instruments did you try before you found one you liked?
I've always been a staunch "Buffet man" but they're making me rethink my commitment
-Randy
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Author: Merlin
Date: 2006-08-23 14:29
Currently, Buffet instruments are distributed in Canada by Coast Music. Canada has no import duties on instruments from France, but there is markup from the distributor.
When we got Buffet product from the U.S., we were stuck paying the extra duties, plus shipping and clearing fees in to Canada. Not good.
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Author: beantown_Bb
Date: 2006-08-23 14:42
So, Merlin, what kind of financial difference is there after the elimination of these duties, etc.?
What kind of true street prices are R-13s actually selling for in Canada these days??
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2006-08-23 22:51
There is "supposed" to be a minimum selling price on all Buffet products, including the E11.
jbutler
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2006-08-24 11:55
To all of you who are buffet fans: you need to get out and play the other pro horns out there. Unlike 20 years ago, there ARE other great clarinets being made. My personal favorite is the Yamaha. I own a CS custom (haven't tried the newest ones yet) and I can tell you it's a far better horn that my old R13, or my old Prestige. Darker sound, WAY better intonation, nice key work, cheaper than a buffet. Obviously everyone has different taste and different requirements in a clarinet, but if you've been sticking with buffet just because "it's what everybody plays" or "it's the gold standard" or some other such nonsense - get out and play some horns with an open mind. If you end up with the buffet, I have no quarrel with you - they make some outstanding instruments. Just decide for yourself - many of you will be surprised.
p.s. I have been playing clarinet for almost 40 years, and I was a die-hard buffet guy for 30 of them. Then about 8 years ago I went to WWBW to get a new "A" clarinet. After trying about 20 buffets, I tried a Yamaha "just for the heck of it". It was the best instrument I played that day, and I bought it to go with my prestige Bb (heresy, I know - unmatched clarinets!) When it was time for a new Bb (about 3 years ago), the Yamaha blew the others out of the water (for me). If we all kept an open mind, I'll bet those guys at buffet might re-think their prices 
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Author: allencole
Date: 2006-08-24 15:58
I teach at a Mom & Pop store that has anxiously embraced Buffet, and here are a few of the things what I was told. (Note that I'm not getting much in the way of answers from Buffet's website)
1 - Buffet is touting to the small retailer the fact that they will no longer be undercut by WWBW, Washington Music, Sam Ash, etc.
(The store owner is thrilled, given his annoyance at my trip to Fred Weiner to get my new horns a couple of years ago. What my store owner still doesn't seem to get is the fact that I actually made that journey to try multiple instruments of the exact models I wanted, with the assistance of a technician)
2 - That Buffet is marketing a new model clarinet for around $1500 that is essentially the same thing as an R13. I heard the name "First Chair" mentioned, but Google only turns up CSO's under this name. He says it's not an E13, but I can find nothing about this on the website.
3 - That Buffet is marketing its own lines of saxophone again, that they will be pro-quality models and cost less than $1000. The owner's telling me in the $600's but I am well beyond skeptical. Again, nothing from Buffet's website.
4 - That the Buffet/Keilwerth connection isn't what it used to be and that the cheaper products will not be of Keilwerth manufacture. (Too bad for the consumer IMO)
Again, nothing on the Buffet website but the owner said that all the info is on the CD. He has ordered one of the $1500 proto-R13's for one of my students, so I will soon have a chance to examine it.
Again, I'm really aghast at the lack of public info on all this from Buffet, and in relative disbelief at some of the claims that I'm being told about. Buffet clearly seems to be gambling that the other manufacturers will adopt similar price controls. (and isn't that the European way of doing things anyway?)
As for flexibility on other instruments, I don't understand why control one and not the other. But I have no problem recommending the E11 & E13, or simply a switch to Selmer, Yamaha or Leblanc. A friend bought a new Selmer about a year ago and the sound is absolutely gorgeous. If not for my desire to have Greenlines, I would be playing Yamahas right now!
Allen Cole
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2006-10-20 08:06
I bought an RC 2 years ago I paid very close to the same price that the same shop advertises now, approx £1375 sterling. This shop lists the SSP as £1743. This is a silver plated, not nickel plated model. This compares with Iceland's experience, looking at the price of the Prestige.
As a more general observation, luxury goods (and this must include clarinets unless you are a pro) are generally cheaper in the US than here in the UK. What costs us £1 cost you $1 approx. ($1 = £0.60 to £0.70 roughly. Also roughly, $1 = 1 Euro) As an electronics engineer by profession, I find this is true at component level as well as finished goods in the shops. It seems that this is not the case with (Buffet) clarinets. I do not know what is going on, unless this is a result new management at Buffet? Or some quirk of US-French trade agreements?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-10-20 09:04
"Also roughly, $1 = 1 Euro"
1 Euro is now about $1.25 US or slightly more even. Pretty significant difference. By the way, looking at prices for Buffet clarinets on the internet, the UK shops are not more expensive than the US shops now (and are much cheaper if you are not a UK citizen and will get the VAT returned).
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Author: Alex M.
Date: 2006-10-20 13:33
I'm just a lowly Buffet Bb B12 owner, so please magnify the dollars involved accordingly:
When I bought my B12 about 6 months ago, WW&BW listed it at over $800 and sold it around $500. They are now at $845 list and $507 discounted. I bought it at an independent music shop in my area for about $400. Not sure what it's selling at today.
Alex M.
Massachusetts
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