 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: KristinVanHorn
Date: 2006-08-11 20:48
just a little confused about notes and rests. ok so in 3/4 time does a hole note get 3 beats? what would a half note and quarter note and eight note get? i am guessing that rests would get the same beats?
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Author: D
Date: 2006-08-11 21:07
3/4 means 4 crotchets. 3/2 would be 3 minims and 3/8 would be 3 quavers. therefore you could have 6 quavers in a 3/4 bar.
A beat is a bit of a mess because of terminology. I was always taught as a child that 4/4 is 4 beats in a bar. But its not. It's 4 crotchets. If the conductor wants to beat in 2 or in 1 he can. As I often end up playing music which was originally written without bar lines this happens quite a lot as the conductor disagrees with the editor or arranger, or the music flows better with 1 beat.
Rests.
The place these get confusing is if there is nothing in a bar but a rest. Sometimes rather than write in 3 quaver rests in a 3/8 bar, the arranger will put a "big monkey" rest which would normally indicate 4 crotchets - the little square box hanging off the second line down.
if you are confused look at the time sig, and make sure you have looked at the bottom number. I have been doing this 24 years and I am STILL confused....maybe I should have carried on lessons!
Good luck.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-08-11 21:51
Oh, dear, D . . . if you have been into music for 24 years and are still confused about time signitures, crochets (whimsies?), minims, and quavers, then I'm really in trouble!! I haven't touched my clarinet since the early 1960's and am now having to relearn it all over again as I don't remember ANYTHING about playing the clarinet OR reading music.
I think some of my confusion in this instance relates to differences in musical terminology between that used in the UK and in the US. Although I have seen the terms crochet, minim, and quaver (the latter sometimes with semi-, demi-, & hemi- or combinations of those prefixes added to it) in some British music book that I looked through a few years ago, I'm not clear what words we use on this side of the pond for those things and/or concepts.
I hope someone can clarify that for me.
EuGene
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2006-08-11 22:01
Assuming that a quarter gets one beat, then:
in 3/4 time, dotted half note gets 3 beats, half note gets 2, quarter 1, eighth a half beat. In 3/4 time you'll seldom find a whole note and if you do it gets 3 beats.
But the rests are weird; a whole rest gets 3 beats; a dotted half rest would have the same value but they seldom appear. Half rests similarly don't often appear; instead you'll find 2 quarters rests.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-11 22:10
Scroll down a bit...
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-08-11 22:14)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-11 22:10
...and again!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-08-11 22:13)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-11 22:12
One way of remembering semibreve (whole note) and minim (half note) rests is "Semibreve is suspended, minim is mounted".
Here's a list of note (duration) names from both sides of the Atlantic:
U.K. ...............................U.S.
Semibreve...........................Whole note
Minim...............................Half note
Crotchet............................Quarter note
Quaver..............................Eighth note
Semiquaver..........................16th note
Demisemiquaver......................32th(?) note
Hemidemisemiquaver..................64th note
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-08-11 22:15)
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Author: FDF
Date: 2006-08-11 23:39
"just a little confused about notes and rests. ok so in 3/4 time does a hole note get 3 beats? what would a half note and quarter note and eight note get? i am guessing that rests would get the same beats?"
¾ time indicates three quarter notes in a measure. Since a whole note is the equivalent of four quarter notes, it is not used in a ¾ time measure, because it is a quarter too long. Instead, a dotted-half note is used to indicate the equivalent of three quarter notes.
Similarly there are three quarter rests in a measure. A half rest (the rectangular box above the middle (B) line of the staff) and a quarter rest represent a ¾ time measure of silence.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2006-08-12 00:57
However it is sometimes customary to use a whole rest in any time signature to indicate that the measure has no notes in it. It then is not actually tied to the time signature but is simply a filler for the blank measure.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-08-12 04:29
D stated:
<3/4 means 4 crotchets, 3/2 would be 3 minims and 3/8 would be 3 quavers, therefore you could have 6 quavers in a 3/4 bar>
Now that Chris P has given me the US equivalents of the UK musical terms I can understand all but the first part of D's statement. If 3/2 is 3 half notes (minims) in a bar, 3/8 is 3 eighth notes (quavers) in a bar, and 3/4 is 6 eighth notes (quavers), then 3/4 would have to be 3 quarter notes (crotchets) rather than 4 quarter notes.
Of course we are generally taught that the time signature indicates so many beats per bar (upper number) and the type of note to get each beat (lower number). Whether or not "beat" is the best word/concept for this purpose is beyond my knowledge, but its use as a term to designate time intervals that will be applied to the music and the notes therein seems quite natural to me. Irrespective of the number of beats per measure, or even if there is no division of the music into measures, the "beat goes on" as an interval standard to control the duration of all the notes (and rests) within the musical work lest there be no rhythmic structure (and repeatability or spreading of the work beyond the composer's concept & baton).
Am I on target here or do I need to go back to do-re-me and start all over again?
EuGene
Post Edited (2006-08-12 04:59)
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Author: D
Date: 2006-08-12 22:03
EuGeneSee, sounds like you've pretty much got it!
The only exception again is really early music which, when written with bars by the editor can end up with hemiolas all over the place which just happen, rather than a couple delicately placed for effect and texture. Or some just kind of drifts along and you would be hard pressed to put bars in were they not already there. It is difficult to play without inserting that pulse that a bar line hints at, but in some cases (typically can't think of any right now) there is no pulse and the bar lines hinder the performer when trying to play it as the original composer intended. Better to get a manuscript book and write it out with no bar lines, then see how it sounds. Quite suprising the difference. I don't pretend to be any kind of expert as I have had a few years of lessons on flute (years ago), no training in music as a subject and everything else I just muddle through on my own. But I play a lot of old music on recorder with a bunch of friends (late on Friday nights mainly) and this is the sort of thing that seems to appear on the music stands at some point after midnight!
Sorry about being confusing with the note names. I have never learned them by the "whole note eighth note" system and really struggle with it.
i can't decide which sounds more frightening. hemidemisemiquaver, or 64th note!
I also realised I should have explained that thing about the monkey in my other post. We were taught "the little monkey isn't big enough to swing on the bar so he sits on it" as a way to remember the difference between a longer and shorter rest. Then the really long rest (rectangle with lines at each side) becomes an exploded monkey etc.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-12 22:56
If you like 'hemidemisemiquaver', a 128th note (5 tails) is called a 'semihemidemisemiquaver'!
So is a 256th note (6 tails) a demisemihemidemisemiquaver?
Now it's just getting silly - but I'm sure someone will write them just to make our life even more difficult - I struggle enough with semiquavers as it is!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: FDF
Date: 2006-08-12 23:07
"The only exception again is really early music which, when written with bars by the editor can end up with hemiolas all over the place which just happen, rather than a couple delicately placed for effect and texture. Or some just kind of drifts along and you would be hard pressed to put bars in were they not already there. It is difficult to play without inserting that pulse that a bar line hints at, but in some cases (typically can't think of any right now) there is no pulse and the bar lines hinder the performer when trying to play it as the original composer intended. Better to get a manuscript book and write it out with no bar lines, then see how it sounds. Quite suprising the difference. I don't pretend to be any kind of expert as I have had a few years of lessons on flute (years ago), no training in music as a subject and everything else I just muddle through on my own. But I play a lot of old music on recorder with a bunch of friends (late on Friday nights mainly) and this is the sort of thing that seems to appear on the music stands at some point after midnight!
Sorry about being confusing with the note names. I have never learned them by the "whole note eighth note" system and really struggle with it.
i can't decide which sounds more frightening. hemidemisemiquaver, or 64th note!"
How about, one note follows another, and each might be of a different duration than the other? However, depending on the tempo, perceived or indicated, as might be the case, if someone is actually trying to keep tempo with other musicians, the rhythm will vary, according to the musicians and their ability to distinguish notes and rests from either European or American sources.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-12 23:16
If anyone is going to write out notes that short (and let's hope they don't), the easiest thing to do is halve the note values and double the tempo to make things more legible - it'll still sound the same, but much easier to comprehend.
I know with Baroque adagios and largos the ornamentation is usually written out in modern editions rather than left to the player, but seeing the page with more ink than paper showing is daunting enough.
Mathematics aren't my forte, and trying to subdivide beats into fractions is a challenge for me.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: FDF
Date: 2006-08-13 01:11
Chris P. If you are respondng to what I wrote, I apologize. What I said was nonsense and not intended as a response to what you wrote. Sorry.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-08-13 04:07
I am going to get me a musical dictionary because I can see that I really need it. There are so many terms that I just don't remember (or maybe never learned before) which keep cropping up on this BB. I don't recall ever hearing terms like "hemiola", "resonance Bb", "articulated G#", etc. so I often get lost reading these postings.
In any event, having the opportunity to learn things such as this thread on rests, interval values, beats, keeping time, etc. is most helpful with all the professional advice and assistance available on this BB. Everyone on here is to be commended for their patience in dealing with newer players or returnees from long ways back as we struggle to learn the right way to play our instruments, care and cleaning, buying a clarinet, and so forth.
EuGene
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-13 11:24
"Chris P. If you are respondng to what I wrote, I apologize. What I said was nonsense and not intended as a response to what you wrote. Sorry."
I wasn't having a go at you at all, FDF, so no offence caused on your part whatsoever. I was only saying that such short note values are hard for me to get my head around, and ages to work out.
There's a lovely oboe solo in Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No.1, 2nd movement. - it's like a recitative and all the embellishment is written out in demisemiquavers (3 tails), but it takes some working out to place the notes on the beat.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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