 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bill
Date: 2006-08-08 23:38
Idle, pointless curiosity: I've seen later Ch. Chedeville mouthpieces and "bottom logo" Ch. Chedeville mouthpieces (the "Ch. Chedeville" is inscribed, in quite a different style, at the bottom back of the mouthpiece).
But I've never seen a "Henri Chedeville" mouthpiece. Is someone able to post a photo? What do they look like?
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
Post Edited (2006-08-09 00:57)
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Author: chris king
Date: 2006-08-10 19:53
One line up and one down. "STEEL EBONITE" between and H.CHEDEVILLE below bottom line.
Post Edited (2006-08-10 20:23)
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Author: Bill
Date: 2006-08-10 22:22
Thanks Chris. Down through the years I've saved photos of different mouthpieces, but in all my travels I've never seen a Henri Chedeville. I've read what I can about "Chedeville," the most recent thing was that Henri, a cousin or something, simply used Ch. Chedeville blanks in the same way that others (Kaspar, Bay) did. So Id begin to wonder whether there was no such thing as a *labeled* Henri Chedeville, but only a Ch. Chedeville blank refinished by Henri. Not that it matters, except that these are supposed to be the rare and superior ones. Unfortunately, in my study I feel no closer to really understanding the Chedeville story.
For example, one finds a statement such as this:
The old Chedeville pieces are long out of manufacture. There were three Chedeville makers, Charles, Lalandais, and Henri.
I've read that Chedevcille bought Lelandais, and I've read exactly the reverse.
In the end it doesn't matter a great deal to enjoying your clarinet, but I do wish more historical information about the instrument and accessories was available. For instance, the clarinet moniker "Leon Trotte" has been very important in my experience of playing, and there is simply no information available about that manufacturer. I've owned two "Trottes" in my life. How strange!
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
Post Edited (2006-08-10 22:25)
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Author: chris king
Date: 2006-08-10 23:56
Well Bill there is certainly not much information to be had about H.Chedeville out there. He was a repairman who lived in Pniladelphia from the 1910/20s and finished blanks supplied by his cousin in France. He applied his own US Pat. facing and reamed the bore to his own specifications and stamped his name below the bottom ligature line. I have seen a blank of that era virtually identcal to a Henri on an old French clarinet - the bore was however smaller. Old Bettoneys with "Artistic Facing"running up the RH side of the table were probably Henri Cheds. The secret is almost certainly the material they were made from. The later rubber QS etc though good does not, for me, produce the overtones as strongly as that old rubber.
I shall be receiving a Ched style mouthpiece soon from Brad Behn and it will be interesting to compare. He has copied that old material.
Chris
PS. There is a photo of H.Chedeville standing outside his workshop with his son/apprentice. It resides in Mark Jacobi's Philly workshop so I have been told!
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-08-11 12:28
the picture exists. it is on Mark Jacobi's wall over his workbench.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-08-12 18:23
Interesting !, it made me wonder if any of the Ched's had any US patents, so I made a search of USPTO.gov, and Yes, none ! Pursueing it farther, I searched under "clarinet AND mouthpiece AND lay" and found a few 1976+ pats. I then looked up the pats referenced in them, and found a few of possible interest here .Most significant was Babbitt 1,385,339 [1921] {worth reading IMHO}, Arthur ** 1,771,157, Naukhous 1,413,429 [1922], and Gemeinhardt [!!]1,896,814 [1933] . These are all in the "old file" and may be difficult to bring up. If troubles, I'll tell you how I read them. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-08-12 19:14
Good try, I guess, Chris, all I get is a quite black screen with a segment ? of a circle. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: chris king
Date: 2006-08-12 20:19
Don I also did a search for patents but could not find anything that far back. I aked friends to try downloading the photo of the H.Ched logo and it worked for them so I'm sorry it is not coming up for you. It was hard to do because the impression is pretty faint and it was only really legible in super-size.
Chris
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Author: rapsak
Date: 2006-08-16 01:44
Dear Chris:
I read your message with great interest tonight. I have always wanted to locate a Henri Chedeville over the years with no luck. However, I did locate an old Bettoney with "steel ebonite" and "artistic facing" in original condition. I have just had it refaced by Lee Livengood and it plays beautifully - just the right resistance and a lovely, lovely sound.
In your message you suggest this vintage Bettoney is, in fact, a Henri Chedeville. I would love to know why and how you have come to this conclusion. I am thrilled, of course!
Thank you very much!
SRF
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2006-08-16 15:48
Hi Rusty and Chris...good old friends.
I don't think Bettoney mouthpieces are Henri Chedevilles but more likely they were made at the Chedeville factory in France. In fact, Henri Chedeville pieces were also made at the Chedeville factory.
The main point is that Henri was obtaining blanks from the Chedeville factory during the finest era of rubber manufacture. They were still being made from rod rubber and they had wonderful playing characteristics.
The term Chedeville can be confusing and perhaps misleading because like the Kaspar paradigm…there were two of them. I find it interesting that there were two Kaspars and two Chedevilles that finished mouthpieces. The thing that threads all of these mouthpiece finishers, is that they used blanks made by the Chedeville factory (Kaspar did also use other blanks as well).
“Chedeville” can refer to the men or the factory. Both Charles and Henri finished blanks made by the same factory, but mouthpieces marked “H. Chedeville” were only made during a relatively short time frame. “Ch. Chedeville” marked mouthpieces have been made for many years and their designs and compounds have changed a great deal.
The Chedeville mouthpieces and blanks that are marked “Artistic Facing” along the side of the table are among the better versions, but many of the best mouthpieces during those days did not have this marking. I think that any mouthpiece marked “Artistic Facing” is more likely to be a good player but it is not exclusive to those pieces.
Chedeville made blanks that were marked “Steel Ebonite” were usually good but not necessarily great. I know of many NY Woodwind Co. mouthpieces that were made from Ched blanks that were not great. The mouthpieces marked “Steelite Ebonite” were made by Riffault (I believe) in the late 60’s and early 70’s and I don’t think they were as good. I should mention however that some of the best mouthpieces of the past were marked “Artistic Facing” and they were also marked “Steel Ebonite” like the one Chris King shows in his photo…I am certain that his mouthpiece is made from the finest rod rubber and it has a beautiful sound.
I guess what all these rambling observations prove is that it is rather complicated…
Sorry to be so confusing.
Best wishes,
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-08-16 17:23
I had some Bettoneys that had "superioure qualite" in that location that were superb. They were supplanted by a certain modern day rendering of the H. Ched. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) Rare 'artistic facings' show up from Bettoney and Woodwind Co and Penzel Mueller...were they from Hank, er...Henri (on-ree, oius)
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Wodkowski
Date: 2006-08-16 17:23
I once had a Henri Chedeville that looked identical to Mr Behns, only with different lettering and numbers. From my memory it had some sort of serial number 2***** and the lettering SGDG along with more numbers and possibly a pat number ( some folks call these the Sounds Good Damn Good Henris). There were a few letters stamped to the right of the table, an RW perhaps and maybe a faded number. There was another letter or 2 to the left of the table, but they were long worn away and could barely be seen.
The H Chedeville was stamped in small block lettering on the back of the mouthpiece under the bottom ligature line, and steel ebonite was above it.
It was the most beautiful sounding mouthpiece Ive ever owned, such resonance and colour. The only thing is it was hard for reeds, tuned badly, and just didnt play well. I had Matson and some other people take a look at it and do some minor adjustments to improve its playability, but in the end I gave up and sold it for a LOT of money. With that money I bought myself a few good playing mouthpieces which I still use - they may not be as special as the Henri in some ways, but they play and do the job consistently, which is one reason why I shy away from the vintage stuff.
I do regret selling the Henri, but I know that it would be sitting in a dusty drawer if I had kept it - now it is being played in a good orchestra and loved and taken care of, as was intended.
Post Edited (2006-08-16 17:27)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-08-16 17:40
sans garantie du gouvernement
often with Brevete=patent
Also found on clocks, lamps, and other antiques.
S.G.D.G.
A French acronym, meaning "Without government guarantee" (of quality or performance), usually preceded by Brevete.
So....the French were copping out even then ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2006-08-16 17:50)
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2006-08-16 18:38
Allan,
Thanks for explaining all that business with the Brevete SGDG etc.
About the "Artistic Facing" marked mouthpieces, they were made in France at the Chedeville factory. I find it unlikely that Henri worked them. Henri had a small business in PA where he repaired instruments, refaced mouthpieces, and remanufactured mouthpieces from Chedeville blanks. He acquired blanks from the Chedeville factory, crafted them to his ideals, marked them "H. Chedeville" and the rest is history...
Those older "Superieure Qualite" mouthpieces were excellent as well. The newer ones marked "Qualite Superieure" were made as recently as the 70's but they too can be quite nice players. I have seen a few mouthpieces that were marked "Qualitie Superieure" that were very different than the newer 70's versions, and they were very good too.
Some of the newer mouthpieces marked "Qualite Superieure" were: Bonade, Ch. Chedeville, Delacroix, DuPre, Lelandais, Thibaville, Freeman, etc. These mouthpieces were most likely made in the 60s-70s and Kaspar used them as well. He would turn them down on the lathe and remove the trademark and then stamp his trademark.
Some of the better old mouthpieces marked "Superieure Qualite" were produced by Bettoney, but made at the Chedeville factory in France.
The older Lelandais marked "Qualite Superieure" could be excellent too.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-08-16 18:49
The Bettoneys were often labelled with the English translation rather than the French. ie "superior quality."
I guess they wanted the Yankees to understand "qualite superioure"
Some eschewed the QS and were labelled Steel Ebonite.....they seem to be identical to the QS.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-08-16 19:23
A fine, learned discussion, fellas, it improved my understanding of this "funny business". With a few years in the patent business, I have always concluded that the term Brevette ["brief" in English] generally referred to patents, either filed applications or issued pats, BUT with SGDG, no gov. guarantee of [presumption of] Validity [due to insufficient pat/lit "novelty search" effort expended in their P O examination], conclusion, just a FR "publication" . In effect, "take your patent suit to court" [if affordable] ! I'm NOT a Pat Atty !! Wish I was smart/good enough to recognize a GREAT mp beyond my "goodies " for my alto/bass cls. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2006-08-16 19:23
I too have seen some Bettoney mouthpieces with the english translation: "Superior Quality" but I believe they were made for Bettoney by Chedeville.
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Author: chris king
Date: 2006-08-16 19:59
The late David Hite told me that some of the earlier Bettoney pieces might have been H.Cheds. He said there was a benchmark stamped on them that identified them as such but he did not say what these were and I suppose we will never find out now.....
Chris
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Author: Bill
Date: 2006-08-17 02:02
Maybe the "linked C's?" On my Bettoney, in additon to the QS and facing number (and the Bettoney stamp), there is another mark that I have seen referred to in discussions as the "linked C's."
Or something.
Bill.
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2006-08-17 13:48
The interlocking "C's" is another trademark used by Chedeville.
That trademark was often used in combination with the "Artistic Facing" trademark. If you have a mouthpiece with any of those markings, there is a good chance that it will be a good player (assuming the interior is not too big).
I am not sure when Chedeville discontinued their use (I think it was when they merged with Lelandais), but I treat those markings as a good sign that there is REAL potential in the mouthpiece.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2006-08-17 14:05
Chris,
Very interesting. Perhaps Bettoney contracted Henri to craft some of their mouthpieces?
The main point I would like to make is that those mouthpieces (Bettoney) were made at the Chedeville factory in France. Henri may have remanufactured them to his specs, but the blanks were most likely made at Chedeville from rod rubber.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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