 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Celeborn
Date: 2006-01-09 02:19
I know, never buy a clarinet named after a bird or a planet, but I've seen a few interesting horns sold under the name of Venus kicking around on the Auction Website That May Not Be Named. Normally I would assume that this the case of another stencil of the same Chinese made instrument, but they sell wood models, including rosewood models with silver or gold plated keys starting in the $800 range. Being something of a equipmentophile, as I'm sure many of us are, this strikes me as a possible emerging brand with a good deal, a la Forte. There appears to be a light suggestion that the horns are made in Australia, though I may be totally mistaken about this. Any thoughts, opinions, predispositions?
Edit: Actually, they are made in China, and the price above is in Australian dollars.
Post Edited (2006-01-09 02:54)
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2006-01-09 04:46
Yep, the Venus is sold over here by the same bloke who sells the "Cibaili" that GBK mentioned, a brand name which is much like the seller's web name. I suppose if you sell enough of them you get your name on them.
For years I've read the reports on the BBoard of the flooding of the US by Chinese-made instruments. The only one I've actually seen in a band here was bought in China by the kid's parents. I looked at it from a small distance, which was enough to see problems.
They're not in department stores yet, but in the last year they've come to Australia on A Certain Internet Auction Site, though I didn't think there'd be enough demand. Fortunately, whoever's buying them doesn't live around here.
----------------------------------------------
Baldrick, you wouldn't recognise a subtle plan if it painted itself purple and danced naked on a harpsichord singing "Subtle plans are here again". - Edmund Blackadder
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-09 08:15
They even do a rosewood bodied one, and a shame to waste rosewood in that way, don't you think?
Other names to avoid:
Saramande
Stagg
Blessing
Vibra
Earlham
Lindo
Cranes
Oddyssey
Mistral
J Michael
Miyashima ("These Clarinets are beautifully crafted and rival the Boosey & Hawkes Regent in every way.")
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-01-09 12:14
The WW/BW house brand of instruments are made by Blessing ...GBK
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-01-09 13:10
> The WW/BW house brand of instruments are made by Blessing
Is that a reason to avoid or not to avoid them?
What about "Diamond" [1stopclarinet] ?
--
Ben
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2006-01-09 13:26
Maybe it's a rosewood laminate 
The picture looks pretty, but I'd bet that it has some fairly scary intonation as well as resistance.
Has anyone here actually tried that model yet?
It's amazing what the Chinese are putting out on the market and for really cheap too. A student of mine from China (getting her Doctorate at Penn) recently bought a gold wash Sax in China for only $200. The thing actually plays!! The keywork is fine too and doesn't bind at all - I've had students come in with Jean Baptiste Saxes which did bind and I wouldn't touch them. This thing actually played ok, and the intonation was good enough to play in a crowded bar...........
She's played it now for about 4 months and no posts have come off yet.
yet
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Author: Ah Clem
Date: 2006-01-10 23:54
I have to admit, that I have been playing the evil Simba since last June and it still works quite well. The tone is unimpressive (at least some of that is me), but it does play.
My understanding is that no one will be willing or able to repair it, when it eventually requires adjustment or repair.
Ah Clem
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Author: ron b
Date: 2006-01-11 05:08
Don't despair, Clem, some techs out here will at least try to fix anything that comes their way. They may not be able to give you a full year's warranty on the repair but the instrument will leave their shop in playing condition.
The attitude that most techs used to have, that they'd refuse to even look at certain brand names is mellowing somewhat. I've had some surprisingly successful results with a couple of no-name saxes recently and a made-in-China clarinet about a year ago caused me to be much more open minded. Rather than just turning them away now, I give it thorough exam before passing judgement. Some are truly un-fixable while others... "could be worse".
- ron b -
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Author: Samba1
Date: 2006-01-16 01:59
I don't know the first thing about Clarinets but I'm looking for one to buy for my girlfriend for her birthday. She doesn't know anything about them either but she told me once she would like to learn...
I don't want to buy something expensive in case she doesn't take to it.... ron b... you mentioned a made-in-china clarinet that caused you to be "much more open minded". What brand was that?
I live in Australia and am considering buying a low-end Cibaili (yes I saw it in the not recommended list). Obviously it's not for a pro, but will it do for a student?
Thanks.
Samba
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Author: ron b
Date: 2006-01-16 03:00
Craftsman
>>>[added info as an edit afterthought: maybe it was Pathfinder]<<<
it was several months ago
- rb -
Post Edited (2006-01-16 04:37)
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2006-01-16 14:39
Samba queried:
Obviously it's not for a pro, but will it do for a student?
My reply:
Unfortunately, Samba, many of these off-brand, lower-priced "instruments" do not respond as well as many student-line instruments from makers like LeBlanc, Selmer, Buffet, Yamaha, Amati, etc. etc. Even Jupiter has improved their instruments to a point where I can recommend them, despite their planetary name.
Edit for clarity: the 6 manufacturers just mentioned produce good to excellent instruments for many levels of player. The types of instruments mentioned below (i.e. those on GBK's list) are the ones to avoid.
These "clarinet-shaped-objects" can be out of tune with themselves, and difficult to blow. Additionally, their unreliability insofar as keywork staying in the right place can make a beginner question the worth of continuing study. Notes simply will not respond, and it won't be the player's fault!
Katrina
Post Edited (2006-01-16 19:35)
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2006-01-16 15:30
Bandnow. It may be the WW/BW's model, but I'm not sure. I think it was 119 dollars from the WW/BW, and it included all the accessories. My favorite part was the mouthpiece, it's almost worth buying one just to look at it. The table has ridges on it, it looks as if someone skillfully used a dull utility knife to carve it. Also, in order for the thing to work for marching band, I had to rip the cork out from under the bridge key, so the lyre wouldn't interfere with the mechanism. I pity the poor beginner that has to start playing on one of these. Sadly, that child will probably quit shortly after beginning out of frustration.
Christopher Nichols
1st Infantry Division
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Author: metranisome
Date: 2006-07-30 06:48
does anyone have info on a Titan brand clarinet?
ive seen some nice "looking" blue ones but im not sure how they work, there listed as titan brand, victory band intsruments
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Author: lifeforms
Date: 2006-07-30 13:06
Samba1 wrote:
>I don't want to buy something expensive in case she doesn't take to it.... ron >b... you mentioned a made-in-china clarinet that caused you to be "much >more open minded". What brand was that?
><snip>Obviously it's not for a pro, but will it do for a student?
My knowledge comes from flutes. We have a lot of kids in our community band who generally start on a recorder or similar, then get to move onto an instrument. (recently we got a grant to buy 2nd hand brand name instruments for kids to use to begin on) but there was one xmas before the grant where a few kids got Stagg instruments. Flute, a sax, and a clarinet.
Yes they were cheap, and were supposedly, on that basis, Cheap start up instruments. Needless to say the Clarinetist gave up, the sax got sold - very rapidly at a big loss, and the flute, well, the flutes been back for several services in its year-2year life so far. The sound quality is quiet at best. The lass struggles on it - I once lent her my TJJ Cantable II flute whilst I did a "quick fix" repair on hers, and to hear her play that one was astounding - difference, tone, volume wise.
The same year another lass, who bought her instrument herself out of her own money aged 12 took our advice and got a special deal on a lower model TJJ. She's been estaticly happy with hers. No service needed, she's zoomed up to 2nd (kinda 3rd) octave, and enjoys playing her flute. The difference in between the two was around £80-100. She'd have no problem selling her flute if she wished, where as the Stagg owner, has it for life (or until someone comes along wishing to start and doesn't know)
The moral of the story is... Yes you pay less for a chinese unknown branded model, but you may suffer. You may find that you have to keep getting it fixed to be able to play it. The quality suffers, and stunts learning. The well known, and respected brands, are dearer, but for a good reason. You get what you pay for. She would find it far easier to learn on a dearer good instrument, than to struggle on a poor one, and prolly get disheartened and give up. A good instrument has re-sale value. You will never get what you paid for it, but if you worry about this, look into renting to buy options. Please make the right choice, and buy the better, dearer instrument - even second hand instruments that are good can be gotten for less, or same price as a brand new pink, or orange or yellow with polka dot one.
On the same note as gifts, someone I know got bought a Chinese flute for an Birthday gift from her Boyfriend, and from talks we had she was so worried, because it was not very good, she struggled on it, and felt obliged to play this "awful flute" because it was a gift. She loved the fact he bought it for her to learn on, but struggled with the flute itself - neither of them knew anything about flutes, but it was cheap so they went with it. She actually ended up getting a Yamaha flute, and plays that now. She keeps the other one as a reminder *G* (and yes they are still together, you live and learn!)
I'm starting to play clarinet on a Corton. It needed adjusting to get my B/C 2nd octave, and have been told not to bother getting it serviced. So it's not great, but I've done well on it. I am however looking forward to getting a "proper" one ;-)
On a side note, the list of brands to avoid is very useful. I'll note those - However I know the windshop I deal with refuses to stock any of those. Wont even look at them for resale, or first sale *G*
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2006-07-30 14:06
Hi All:
I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but:
These clarinets from China and elsewhere, do play, and some are actually good, not great, but OK.
The students, young professionals, and even some new Broadway woodwind doublers have brought them to me to try. I do not like any of them, but some do play well enough to get these players through the jobs they have taken.
When the clarinets do have problems, I have suggested they dispose of them immediately, buy another one, or move up to a fine professional instrument like a Buffet, Selmer, Leblanc, etc.
I believe we are seeing the "disposable clarinet," like the "disposable camera," and all the unfixable disposable new toys we all use. We have something here that is "useful" for a while, then it is meant to be thrown away! It seems a shameful waste, but our economy is supporting (and encouraging) such waste.
I am not suggesting we buy, or encourage others to buy these inferior products, but if they must, then throw them away when they break, and move on.
PS I have seen them a Walmart for around $100 US$, and that's much less than a professional full repair job. Again, they are not good, but they do work for a short period of time that will get the young player into live music and performing with others.
Disclaimer: I do not sell ANY clarinets, or receive any remuneration from any manufacturer. I also do not recommend, or encourage any player to buy any of there inferior horns.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: lifeforms
Date: 2006-07-30 15:02
I can see the point, but where do you stop? 2, 3, 4 clarinets down the line? Thats 2, 3, 400$+ spent out to get a consistant working clarinet, that's, lets face it, not that great. Yes playable is ok, but its not wonderful. spend out 400$ on a good named clarinet, and you get a really nice clarinet that is prolly gonna stay with you for a while, certainly not disposable, and has the resale value.
Not everyone who picks up an instrument is going to stick at it, but if you are not fighting manufacturing errors, or just ok instruments then you have to be more likely to want to keep at it.
I just think its a shame that people are being given, or buying these clarinets/instruments, and finding out they're just ok, or even worse, not good.
Fair enough as a second instrument left lying around for the occasional play. I keep a flute, and piccolo for exactly that reason next to my comp. Very cheap, but when I play them, and then my "proper" flute/piccolo. I know the difference, mainly the 3rd octave I mostly play is impossible, or very bad to hear on them. My corton will most likely fall into that catagory, when I get my new one too.
OTOH. I never learnt any instruments in school - something I deeply regret. It would have solved many of my problems I have now. The school had one flute, which my brother got. I got offered a French horn. I was 7/8. I couldn't even carry it, it was so heavy, so that lasted about a month. That was my only choice. HOWEVER had there been "cheap" sub £150 flutes around at that time, then perhaps I could have persuaded my parents to have bought me one and gotten school lessons.
Funny as it goes, my brother hasn't even picked up a flute since he left school, where as I was desperate for it. I even played around with his, blowing it when he wasn't around.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2006-07-30 15:37
"I can see the point, but where do you stop? 2, 3, 4 clarinets down the line? Thats 2, 3, 400$+ spent out to get a consistant working clarinet, that's, lets face it, not that great. Yes playable is ok, but its not wonderful. spend out 400$ on a good named clarinet, and you get a really nice clarinet that is prolly gonna stay with you for a while, certainly not disposable, and has the resale value."
I think if you've purchased 4 of these inferior instruments, you've purchased way too many. And I don't know about the UK prices of used professional instruments, but you can't buy a good clarinet here for anything like $400, a used Buffet in NYC is going for $1200 or so...that's a lot of Chinese clarinets...!
Again, I'm not suggesting or encouraging the purchase of any of these dreadful clarinets. If you buy or receive one for about $100, use it, if you can, and then when it breaks, buy a decent instrument to keep up your interest in performing and being involved in live music.
It's a "throw-away," not a keeper or a fixer-upper. Another "disposable" item that we use, discard, and replace with something hopefully better.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2006-07-30 17:25
Most kids, and many adults, want something "new and shiny".
Most parents of beginning clarinetists have no clue that a $20 Bundy, bought at auction, and an $ 80 pad and cork job, will play circles around, and outlast the shiny CSO that they can get for the same $100.
Since the emphasis is on new and shiny, they are faced buying a big four plastic student model for $900 -$1000 or a CSO at $100 or so.
In the dark ages when I started out (1950's) many students were thrilled to death to start with Uncle Ernie's American Standard silver plated clarinet.
I played borrowed instruments for two yers before my parents bit the bullet and shelled out half a month's pay for a Selmer Signet Special , which I am still playing today.
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-07-31 08:04
my student who started the year with a STAGG clarinet has now progressed to.... a 15 year old Artley owned by the school.... the STAGG lasted less than 6 months, and the cost of repairs is now higher than the original cost of the instrument.
donald
Post Edited (2006-07-31 08:05)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-07-31 10:56
A trombone player bought one of those bright green things (a JinYin clarinet) 'because it looks nice' - it makes a clarinet sound - I'll grant it that, but the barrel is so short (around 62mm) it has to be pulled right out for the thing to be in tune with itself. And the keys bend just by looking at them. I'm not Uri Geller, but I didn't realise I had telekinetic powers until I looked at one of these - adjusting screws worked themselves loose, long Bb wouldn't stay in adjustment, same with the crow's foot.
As for the low density plastic it's made from, it'll probably disintegrate in sunlight.
So for a beginner having such a short barrel isn't doing them any favours, and if they do get a B12 a few months down the line, they're going to have sore chops playing up to pitch after the slack-jawed playing they're used to on one of these. And any teacher in their right mind will not recommend one at all.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Matt H
Date: 2006-08-15 02:20
Used quality is the way to go for beginners (and others!) NEVER rent and don't buy Chinese junk. I got a vintage Evette & Schaefer Master (E13 Master) on auction. Got it overhauled. I have ~$280 US in it. Also got a a vintage Evette (E11) same way and overhauled for ~$240 total. Just got a CUESNON MONOPOLE CONSERVATOIRES for $206 US delivered. It needs no overhaul - already has new pads/cork, but could use polishing on keys. I may go ahead and get that done and have it tuned and still have only $300 in it.
All of these can certainly be resold for very little loss, if not actually a gain. Best to buy in summer (U.S., that is) during the price "doldrums" as I did with these, and then resell closer to Christmas.
Done every bit as well with vintage trumpets/cornets for wife. Also got vintage Blessing Super Artist trombone for daughter. I know someone cited Blessing as brand to avoid. Not sure of modern-day Blessings, but Clifford Brown played a Blessing Super Artist (trumpet of course) which is top of the line pro quality.
Post Edited (2006-08-15 02:37)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-10-06 16:39
Tom A. wrote:
"I suppose if you sell enough of them you get your name on them."
That is basically it. I spoke to a local retailer who told me that they will do a run of instruments and put any name on it you like. You just pay for that run. That will explain why there are SO many brands that you can't keep track and many look the same.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2008-10-06 18:02
Underneath all those ads for flutes is a news bulletin:
'China launches Space Walk mission'
I wonder if their oxygen supply system comes with a fingering chart!
What next? "A five year mission to explore strange new worlds - while playing a variety of woodwind instruments with leaky pads, in a spaceship that looks like a ukelele."
Steve
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Author: redwine
Date: 2008-10-06 19:27
Hello,
When I visited China about 3 years ago, I went to the Shanghai Music Convention and tried every clarinet on the floor. I probably tried 50 or so different brands. Generally, I could talk any of the sales people down to $35 for a clarinet, and that was just me, a westerner with no credentials (although, they probably did think I might be a buyer for a big music company or something like that). Nonetheless, can you imagine how cheaply Wal Mart (or whichever company) can get them, ordering hundreds or thousands of them at a time?
By the way, every one of them had horrible intonation.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-06 22:49
This caused the alarm bells to ring at first glance:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/202192583/harp/showimage.html?
On closer inspection I realise Lyon&Healy, Salvi, Horngacher, etc. have nothing to fear. Until someone asks them to replace the neck or soundboard.
Though it has to be said (and brings the thread title into play) - Venus harps http://www.venusharps.com/ are built in Chicago, not China and have no connection with Venus clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-07 05:03
>> Though it has to be said (and brings the thread title into play) - Venus
>> harps http://www.venusharps.com/ are built in Chicago, not China and
>> have no connection with Venus clarinets.
What about the Venus statue? 
By the way, the worst of all instruments I've ever seen are called Dolnet. Not the old French company but a new version from who knows where. I've tried to see if anyone from any other country have heard of them, and doesn't look like it, so probably some local importer resurrected the name. They make just about every woodwind and brass instrument, and those I've seen (clarinets and saxophones) are much worse than any other terrible far east instrument I've seen before (which were also horrible).
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Author: Shi-Ku Chishiki
Date: 2008-10-08 04:36
JJM said in part in his post..
"You can't buy a good clarinet here for anything like $400, a used Buffet in NYC is going for $1200 or so."
That's interesting JJ. I just looked at prices in one of our local music stores, ie: Sam Ash.. and came up with the following.
Jean Baptiste JBCL5 Student Clarinet Outfit: $239
Jean Baptiste JBCL484 Student Clarinet Outfit: $259
Jean Baptiste CL480 Clarinet: $259
Selmer CL701 Prelude Student Clarinet: $279
As I said it's interesting considering both Jean Baptiste and Selmer are good brand name instruments. I wonder why so high in NYC?
Shi-Ku Chishiki ShiKu.Chishiki@Gmail.com
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2008-10-08 16:57
I've never heard of Jean Baptiste clarinets.
Where are they made?
Steve
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-10-08 18:51
"I've never heard of Jean Baptiste clarinets. Where are they made?"
Just the other side of Elbonia.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2008-10-08 19:48
-- Wikipedia..."Republic of Elbonia is a fictional country supposedly in Eastern Europe from Scott Adams' comic strips Dilbert and Plop: The Hairless Elbonian. It is an extremely poor, "fourth-world" country that has recently abandoned Communism. Most of the nation is covered with waist-deep mud, which the residents use to build houses." --
Oh, so where the US Bank and real estate CEOs come from!
Steve
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-08 21:11
"As I said it's interesting considering both Jean Baptiste and Selmer are good brand name instruments."
Are they? They may have a good brand name (in that a name is a name), but that doesn't mean the product carrying the name is much cop.
Selmer Prelude is also in the list of clarinets NOT to buy, and at those prices it's a rip-off.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-10-08 22:20)
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Author: W.ii.n.n.ii.E
Date: 2008-12-29 07:45
Im thinkin of buying a brand new clarinet but the brand is Cabaili. I'm not familiar with this brand. Could anyone tell me about it? Does anyone know if it is reliable? Its very cheap ($134.00) and it says that the instruments have been approved by teachers and music directors around the world.
Can anyone help??
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-12-29 07:49
"Its very cheap ($134.00) and it says that the instruments have been approved by teachers and music directors around the world."
Don't believe the marketing hype - it's all false allegations and I don't know of any teacher or director in their right mind who would ever approve of such tripe.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-12-29 19:14
Let's put it this way.... My first clarinet was a halfway decent, basic Bundy that I got new in 1968 for US $185. What quality do you think you will get, 40 years later, for $51 less?
Approved by instructors? It probably went something like this:
Instructor 1: "Hey, Bill.... what's that you got there?"
Instructor 2: " I dunno, Harry. Sorta looks like a clarinet, if you squint a little."
Instructor 1: "Yep, I reckon that's what it is. I approve of you callin' it a clarinet."
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Klarinet946
Date: 2009-08-13 18:40
In general about clarinet brands not to buy and techs not willing to repair certain brands; I just want to remind us about the first Jupiters, Amaties and compare them to the early Suzuki, Hyundai, Datsun etc. car models. Look at them now! Granted there are allot of garbage instruments out there, but some people seem to discard without ever playing them.
I bought a used Amati Special, with left Eb lever, in 1968 and I still play it. I also have a metal Holton and use a Selmer 9 for classical work. Sure there is a difference, but they work and the old saying about getting what you pay for is true most of the time.
I just wonder how much of the hostile resistance is due to "hurt establishment" feeling. Time will tell if some of these new manufacturers will improve enough to challenge the old brands.
The student market is always the testing ground, that is how they break in to the market.
Micky
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