 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kfrank1
Date: 2006-07-28 18:22
Hi there. I was wondering whether someone could give some comments or tips on my search and tryouts for my first bass clarinet.
I am a doubler (sax, clarinet, and flute) and come from a jazz background. I have been thinking about getting a bass clarinet and just yesterday had the opportunity to try a couple out for the first time. One was a plastic Selmer Bundy and the other was a Selmer Paris Wooden Clarinet (full boehm, 1972 vintage). Both go down to Eb. The seller is a professional jazz musician doubler (sax, clarinet, flute), and also teaches at a local college. He was good enough to let me take both instruments to another pro doubler to get his opinions.
I have never played a bass before. However I was able to blow up to altissimo A after a few attempts. I tried both a Selmer C# mpc and a Vandoren B45, with a Rico 2 1/2 reed and also a Rico Royal 3 tenor sax reed . My sound was not good, lacked volume and the mpc felt stuffy/muffled. He played both of the instruments for comparison. I couldn't detect much difference in the sound between the two. He seemed to think the Selmer Paris sounded better, but they were both good. He said the Bundy definitely played more consistently in terms of sound quality over the range of the instrument and I agreed. He also played his low C Selmer as a comparison. It sounded more fuller, bigger and darker. We agreed that it can be considered a different instrument from the Eb. Putting them side by side it looks like they are different instruments, almost like an alto vs tenor sax or C melody sax.
Because I can't play a bass with a decent sound, and am not familiarized with the instrument, this makes it difficult to rate the instruments. I have to go by what someone else says to a certain extent. His opinion was that the Bundy was a very good playing instrument and excellent for the price ($600). The Selmer Paris he thought had the better sound, was not as consistent sounding when comparing alternate fingerings, and had a the odd note that was more difficult to play, but nothing that one could not get used to. He thought the price ($2000) was fair.
The seller let me take the Selmer home last night to get more familiar with it. It does play a bit stuffy on certain notes. So as a Selmer Paris, I would rate it as neither a dud or a great player. It's probably average.
Does anyone have any thoughts about this? Thanks.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-07-28 19:18
Wow, a two part, compound-complex question!
Regarding the horns, the George Bundy/Selmer USA bass clarinet is a good enough instrument, and probably a better one than the Leblanc equivalent. (I've only just touched a Yamaha low end once, so I can't offer an opinion there, and I would vote against the Ridenour flavor now available solely upon my physical examination of one specimen.) You gain a lot in price, the one piece nature of the horn helps keep things in line better than a multi-joint instrument, and it's going to be a bit lighter as well.
Against that, you have the undeniable fact that the Selmer (Paris) instrument is better suited for facile playing across all registers of the instrument, has a superior neck angle compared to the Bundy/Selmer USA (out of the box), and offers the articulated C# key and alternative Eb lever.
(For the record, there isn't a "full Boehm" bass clarinet on the market these days, or at any other time you might choose. You will get the Eb and the articulated G#, plus the Eb extension (below the low E) that are found on the "full Boehm" soprano, but you will not get the fork Bb/Eb on the upper joint. In...Can it be so? Does the calendar so deceive these aging eyes of mine?...forty-one or two years of playing the bass clarinet, I've never seen a fork Bb/Eb on the upper joint, most probably because the nature of the bass clarinet tone hole covering scheme devised by Sax doesn't allow for an open tone hole between that sounding E and that sounding D. So, what you've got there is pretty much a standard "professional level" bass for the time and manufacturer.)
Spread out over the life of your use of the horn, that additional $1,400 savings difference between the two purchase prices means that you'll save a good bit up front. The flip side of this is that you'll have to live with the limitations for a long time.
Range-wise, both can be brought well up into the stratosphere. I was playing altissimo As on a Bundy horn back in my 1960's schoolboy days (I did the Mozart Bassoon Concerto in transcribed form, and the cadenza jumped up to altissimo A a couple of times), and you can go well beyond that once you feel around a bit and figure out which fingerings (and mouth pressures) work best. Ditto for the Selmer Paris instrument. (And, in my case (Model 33) at least, the same fingerings do not apply to both horns.)
However, the need to hit anything much above high E on a bass clarinet is something nice to have but not often called for in non-improv music. Take out that and "modern' orchestral stuff, and you'll find yourself down below high C for the most part.
For me, the double register mechanism on the Selmer Paris is reason enough to choose that one. Such instruments play better over the break, and speak better when making wide jumps into the range where the upper vent comes into play. This sort of "regularity" is far more important than being able to cleanly pick an altissimo A, and it is well worth the extra price in my eyes. But, it may not be in yours.
(You didn't mention the presence or absence of pegs, but as they are both relatively new instruments, I assume that they both have pegs. If attached to a bell slide mount, they're both about the same, but if attached to the instrument's body (usually through two mounts with thumbscrews), I would avoid that instrument, particularly if an ex-school horn. I have seen a number of failures of the lower joint from such mounts, and a school child can be a stern taskmaster when handed an instrument like a modified bass clarinet. Something else to consider.)
Now, regarding the "stuffy" issue:
If you've not played bass before (for any extended period), it's likely that your experiences with stuffiness would be addressed by the right mouthpiece and reed combination for your (relatively immature (in a non-judgemental sense) embouchure.
If you have been playing a lot of saxophone over the years, you will probably not be happy with a C* ("C-Star", not a C#) mouthpiece. You need to move up in terms of lay opening, and down in terms of reed strength. This may introduce its own set of control issues, but it does help better match the various instrument as far as the tone generator is concerned.
Sadly, experimentation on a bass clarinet costs about three times as much (in terms of mouthpieces and reed costs, at least) as does a soprano. An unpleasant fact, but one of the crosses that a bass clarinet player has to bear. To give you some idea of just where this can lead, my recent (over the last six years or so) experience in the matter may prove illustrative.
Prior to about a year and a half ago, I played either on a Selmer C* or C** mouthpiece, using a reed in the 3 1/2 to 3 range. While this worked well enough, I never did have the kind of projection or power needed to compete with many orchestration situations beyond that of a symphonic setup. With pit orchestra orchestrations, I felt like I was not really holding up my end of the deal, and with rock/pop/R&B stuff, it was like playing in a big box of cotton.
Now, in the old days it was hard to obtain any bass clarinet mouthpiece other than the ubiquitous C*. That's what was recommended by educators, that's what was stocked in the expansive local music jobber's showroom, and that's what you could buy. So, there were a lot of people who started on a C* and played one throughout their bass clarinet playing "career".
This is no longer the case. Given enough money (and the things are not cheap, mind you), you can easily find mouthpieces on either side of the C* 'mean', and have one in your hands in twenty four hours or so. And, while trying them is still chancy (remember to tape the beak against your teeth and watch out for ligature damage when you put things together), it's easy to go through a selection of mouthpieces to pick that which is best for you.
So, what did I end up with? I settled on a Selmer G lay (the only one I've ever seen outside of an online catalog listing), and ended up moving down the reed strength to a 2 1/'2 Van Dorn in the process. It better matches my saxophone setups (all three pretty open), and it allows me to project the added amount that our pop arrangements require for balance. The tone is "reedier" than it was with the "tight" lay, and it blends well with both jazz clarinet technique and saxophone stuff.
In the end, only you will be able to tell what you need, and even then it's going to require a credit card (for the mouthpiece trials) plus a few reeds of each strength to figure out your "bracket" in the grand scheme of things.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: kfrank1
Date: 2006-07-28 20:29
Thanks Terry for that very helpful information. Yes that was a typo about the Selmer mpc (C* not C#). I can't remember whether the peg came with the Bundy, but it does come with the Paris and it does slide into the bell slide mount. Thanks for that tip.
I am leaning towards the Paris mainly because of the Ab/Eb key and articulated C#/G#. This would pair up nicely with my full-boehm selmer paris soprano clarinet
About the double register mechanism, I did notice that the sound came through nicely at the break, it was not stuffy at all. However, I didn't notice any major problem with the bundy either.
Where it was a bit stuffy was around clarion D through G, as I recall. According to the tester he thought this horn was slightly harder to blow than his own horn which was the same make and around the same vintage but without the extra keys.
Post Edited (2006-07-28 20:34)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-07-28 21:44
Yes, Terry has covered the "bases=basses" very well and I agree that the Sel-Paris [I also have one] will be the most satisfactory now and after you learn the bass' peculiarities. Having two [better located] register vents cleans up most of any "stuffy-slow response" that most single vent models are cursed with. To avoid any squeeks you may encounter, the pad seating must be very "tight", as a bass is very susceptible to HIGH overtone jumping, with even very slight leaks, so have it checked by a compent BASS PLAYER . See if your low Eb fingering with the register key gives you a good mid-staff Bb, it can be very handy, also the 1 and 1 fingering [both first fingers] should give you a very useful Eb/Bb, and not need the "fork". Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-07-28 23:16
Just to ad my 2 cents. Double check that the peg mechanism is sound: with peg inserted and screw tightened, use some force to push down the horn to see if the screw 'gives in", causing the peg to slip and the horn to bottom out. Old Selmers are notorious for this. You need to make sure that the tightening screw grips the peg securely at all times, or else you risk of dropping the instrument and denting the bell, or worse.
If you plan on playing outdoor under hot or cold conditions, do you really want to use your wood instrument? Having a plastic horn will be an advantage because you won't worry about wood expanding or shrinking, leading to possibility of crack. If you are serious about playing bass, you might want to entertain the thought of owning 2 horns, wood for indoor and plastic for outdoor. And if you are REALLY serious about bass, you will be looking for a low C model in near future.
If I were you, I would consider buying the plastic Selmer Bundy for $600 or less, rule out the wood Selmer Paris (due to your account that it isn't that much superior to the Bundy), and start saving money for a nice second hand low C Buffet or Selmer Paris.
Good luck!
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Author: kfrank1
Date: 2006-07-28 23:44
That is tempting to get a low C Bass but right now I'm thinking if I get the Eb Selmer I will most likely never need to upgrade. For the type of playing I am likely to be doing I think the low C will never be a requirement, however nice it would be to have it.
I don't really know how much I will be playing the bass. At this stage it is just a nice thing to have. Also I have read that there are several pro's who get by with a plastic bass, so I think I am taking the middle road with a Eb Selmer. If there was a good plastic bass that had Ab/Eb and articulated C#/G# I may go for that, but as far as I know there isn't.
Thanks for the additional replies.
Post Edited (2006-07-28 23:46)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-07-29 00:10
I've used the low C extension on my Selmer far more for "rearranging" the occasional baritone sax part on the fly to make for a better female vocal backup than I ever have for "art" music. For the most part, the low C extension is a solution in search of a problem.
There are precious few bass clarinet parts that range below the written low E for the A bass (sounding Eb on the Bb bass), and unless you are going to be doing a lot of Russian or modern classical music, the low C isn't that essential. Having said that, I will also stress that I ain't givin' up mine...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-07-29 01:27
I guess the several of us have stirred up additional commentary. BassetHorn's post is rite on target re: the [desireably-used] peg support, in that when I found my peg slipping, both down and out, I added an O-ring to the tightening screw's circumference to give me greater tightening ability, and put a drilled-out rubber "foot" on the peg just under the support to prevent any dropping. Both work well and safely for me. For a bit I flirted with selling my Sel, and investing in a low C. It provides only 3 add'l notes for about $1000 per note !! In my [principally] concert band playing I have run into only a few low D's, for which I either let the tubas play it, or lip-down my Eb softly [ Heresy ?]. If its a "solo", long note D, I am prepared to use a bell-extending tube [large soft drink type], bottom cut out, which makes the low Eb into a decent D ! [More heresy ??] Comments?? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: kfrank1
Date: 2006-07-29 08:31
I have chosen the Selmer after all, mainly because of the "full-boehm" option which is the same configuration as my clarinet, and also I am sure as I can be that it is not a "lemon".
Thank you for all of your comments. It made me consider things that I otherwise would not have thought of.
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