 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2006-07-08 21:58
Dear People; Here is a compact vehicle to make it easy to jam in any key at one if those meetings. Just find the primary major scale by ear, C major is always the example and cm stands for the compound minor, the natural and harmonic minor and mm means melodic minor. Here it is:CM Dcm Fmm CM. The flat 5 occurs to the Dcm when the Fmm happens, so that is the fairly dysinhibited bebop flavor. We have the CM bookends with the takeoff and return scales in between. Okay, thank you, maintain good posture and natural vibrato in the foregoing attempt to be socially adequate without a script, Ken
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Author: vjoet
Date: 2006-07-08 22:07
Ken,
What is a compound minor? New term to me.
vJoe
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Author: Lynn
Date: 2006-07-09 00:32
You left me in the dust on that one, pardner. What are you smoking?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-07-09 08:56
One thing I learnt recently was if you see (eg.) a C7 chord symbol, you play a G melodic minor scale over this.
It's as if you're playing the C7 and superimposing a D7 on it, so you get both the C7 chord tones (C,E,G,Bb) and the D7 chord tones (D,F#,A,C) - put them together and you get this scale - C,D,E,F#,G,A,Bb,C. Start this on G and you have a G melodic minor scale (G,A,Bb,C,D,E,F#).
So you're sharpening the 4th with this scale.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2006-07-09 11:45
lydian chromatic concept of tonal organization - george russell
Anyway, lydian dominant is always a good choice when you need tio play withouth much time t analyse.
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-07-09 22:33
''One thing I learnt recently was if you see (eg.) a C7 chord symbol''
In all of my chord books, C7 = CEGBb.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-07-09 22:44
Yeah, C7 may be C,E,G,Bb , but you can extend it to get C,E,G,Bb,D,F#,A,C.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2006-07-10 01:27
That's the thing. The dominant 7th is a great mixing note, and you end up being able to play anything above a C7 chord but an F or a B natural, and dropping the E in the chord can make that F start to sound fairly good.
I have always been a bit hazy on the Lydian Chromatic Concept (although I have seen it nicely demonstrated) but it's not hard to grasp the concept of the dominant 7th as the ultimate permissive chord.
Allen Cole
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2006-07-10 01:37
A flat fifth is a flat fifth. But that's not the sum and substance of what bebop is based on. Parker, in his 14 hours a day practicing, learned how to improvise on chord extensions, how to diminish and augment the fifths of dominant 7ths, and play the jazz minor scale (major scale with lowered third) over the dominants, and on and on.
b/
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-07-10 07:03
"Yeah, C7 may be C,E,G,Bb , but you can extend it to get C,E,G,Bb,D,F#,A,C."
AKA C7 9 #11 13 which is very common in (mainstream) jazz. Used in almost any arrangement. Coincidence or not, it is almost just the order of the overtones.
About Parker, he could do basically everything, but imho his biggest strength was how melodic his playing was. A lot of times he used the "wrong" notes but they sounded right. One example is:
"The dominant 7th is a great mixing note, and you end up being able to play anything above a C7 chord but an F or a B natural, and dropping the E in the chord can make that F start to sound fairly good."
Parker (and many other good players) played F and B on C7 chords. It is how he (and others) played them that made it sound good.
Post Edited (2006-07-10 07:49)
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-07-10 08:52
''It's as if you're playing the C7 and superimposing a D7 on it, so you get both the C7 chord tones (C,E,G,Bb) and the D7 chord tones (D,F#,A,C)''
I did this on my piano. I played a C7 (C E G Bb) and added a D7 (D Gb A C) and it sounded fairly unmusical.
I then started, the otherway around with the D7 chord (left hand) and added a C7 with the right, note by note. So, D7 + C + E (ok) + G (getting modern...ish) + Bb (not a chord I would use very much, I suspect).
''AKA C7 9 #11 13 which is very common in (mainstream) jazz. Used in almost any arrangement.''
Can you name a few numbers where this chord is used? I'd like to check my collection and see how it sounds on a number I may possess already.
I'm not disputing the obvious skill Parker (and his proteges) employed/still employ, but (and I DO like much of the bebop era) latter day jazz seems to have gone off the rails somewhat. Even players I really amire, such as Horace Silver and Sonny Rollins I find nowdays to be more often than not, quite incomprehensible.
Give me the ''Blue Note'' era of 1950s to about 1970, I guess that's the period of contemporay jazz I can understand.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-07-10 09:40
Ned, if you hold the C7 chord (C,E,G,Bb) in the LH and play the G melodic minor scale over this (but still keeping the E and F# while descending as well) you should hear the effect - the extended C7 (#11) to the 13th is a melodic feature.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-07-10 11:00
Ned, regarding harmony in jazz there is a big difference between composition, improvisation and arrangement. Why the specific chord of C E G Bb D F# A sounds unmusical to you is beyond me, but I also know people who don't like anything later than Brahms and that is beyond me too. This chord and other like it were used in music for example of Stravinsky (maybe earlier?).
I personally like jazz from Louis Armstrong (and even before) to Evan Parker (pretty much as modern as you can get).
I just played the chord on piano and it sounded very usual to me. If you look in the real book you won't see much more than one note added after the 7 (most of the time), but when someone improvises, the music is very fast and they add a lot of notes, and a lot of times it goes too fast to notice exactly what they played. So when a chart shows C7, the pianist might play E G Bb D F# A, instead of just C E G Bb (almost never they will use just these notes in music from bebop or later).
In arranging songs, a lot of times the arranger will also add notes other than the basic 4 (almost always). They actually write them down, which is different from improvising. As far as I know, there aren't that many big band scores available, and I don't have any at all, so I can't check for song names. I know this chord and other of the same nature were used as early as in Duke Ellington's music (maybe before?).
In big band arrangments of people like Thad Jones and even more Bob Brookmeyer there are much more unusual and disonant chords.
I hope this helps.
"latter day jazz seems to have gone off the rails somewhat."
That's exactly what people thought at the time about a lot of the music that is considered pretty normal today.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2006-07-10 15:18
I'm still waiting for a definition of "compound minor." How about it, Ken? I still need that to feel clear on how it relates to the flat 5. On Google, I can only find references to compound intervals. Would this mean that D compound minor is actually D7#9?
Another workable formula that I've seen promoted is to play blues in dorian mode and add the flat 5/sharp 4 into that scale. Sounds to me more like a blues scale with 2 & 6 added, but using that approach does create a more modal character.
If there is an interest in one-size-fits-all improvising modes, maybe we should try and list them, along with their characteristics and limitations. I haven't tried the G harmonic minor thing over C7 yet, but will give it a whirl today.
Allen Cole
Post Edited (2006-07-10 15:26)
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