 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-06-11 05:35
Hi
Maybe this was discussed before but it changes so fast that I think a new thread is ok.
I'm looking for a mp3 player and recorder. I will use it a lot to record rehearsals and concerts, but I will attach a stereo microphone to it instead of using the built in microphone.
I also need it to work as a hard drive - that means it won't require a special software to load files into it, just copy like from two drives on the computer.
I need it to have at least good quality and a lot of space (20gb at least).
I think all players support mp3 format, but I need it to support wav format and be able to record to wav format.
The only players I know are Iriver and Iaudio and I don't know much baout them.
I would also like to hear recommendations on a stereo microphone to get for the player.
Any help will be greatly appreciated!
Post Edited (2006-06-11 05:40)
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Author: Richard Ashmore
Date: 2006-06-11 09:29
Check the Sony Hi-MD™ Walkman® Digital Music Player MZ-RH910; details at http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?ProductSKU=MZRH910&Dept=audio&CategoryName=pa_MiniDiscPlayers
.
Richard
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-06-11 14:08
I'm getting good results with my Sony MD (Mini-Disc) walkman. I got a tiny Sony stereo mic that plugs in to the pocket-sized unit. At rehearsals and lessons, I just set it on a chair someplace.
I'm still using the original mini-disc; and it seems to be tolerating being overwritten time and time again. If more storage were needed between offloads, a handful of mini-discs could be used.
The Sony software --for offloading your recordings-- hasn't been very useful; but I haven't recorded anything that absolutely has to be downloaded to my computer --so I'm waiting for more pressure to learn how to do that.
The only operational problem I've had is that it takes a looonnnnggggg time for the unit to write the recorded (remembered) file to the mini-disc. This is a pain when you want to record several different pieces on separate tracks on the disc. Example: you can't save the first piece you've rehearsed before the conductor wants to start on the next --this means that I often have a two hour long track to wade through after orchestra practice.
Bob Phillips
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-06-11 15:01
You might also want to check out the Creative Zen Microphoto. They're relatively inexpensive, and the recording quality is fantastic. The mic is extremely sensitive, and the clarity is great. I've been using it for EVERYTHING lately, and it's really working out well.
Check around Amazon, they're usually around 180 bucks or so...
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Author: Peter_Piper
Date: 2006-06-11 15:30
The just-released Edirol R-09 might be exactly what you need. I just got one and it's great for recording yourself in the practice room as well as concerts. Fits right on the music stand next to your metronome. Don't be fooled by its small size -- the built-in mics are excellent (plus you can use a separate one if you like). It's a bit expensive, but worth it. It's so convenient that you end up recording yourself all the time (especially good for getting a reality-check on those orchestral excerpts!):
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/R09
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-06-11 15:41
Thanks very much for your replies!
As I said, I want a hard-drive type player so a minidisk player is not what I need. The Sony Hi-MD is only 1gb which is way too little. Being able to transfer ot my computer is one of the most important things, and I don't mind recording all of it as one long track, since it would be much easier to just seperate it on the computer. That's why it has to work as a hard drive and not require a special software.
Alseg I will email you, thanks.
Edit: Alseg I just looked at the link and it is not clear to me, they say the Sony can be used as a USB storage device, but I'm not sure if I need the actual disks like a regular minidisk or not? I don't what size (storage) it is either.
The Edirol sure is nice, but expensive! I'll work on convincing myself to get it... maybe.... Actually tyhat Sony costs exactly the same as the Edirol. I'm not sure what advantage each of them have.
Post Edited (2006-06-11 15:55)
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Author: Peter_Piper
Date: 2006-06-11 15:55
I forgot to mention that the Edirol R-09 is a FlashCard recorder (no moving parts), can record many hours when set to mp3 format with a 2Gb card, and connects via USB to your computer - downloads in seconds. No special sotfware.
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Author: Clarinetist
Date: 2006-06-11 21:55
I would be curious to know if the recording quality for the Edirol R-09 is as good as on cd´s, because it seems to record only on mp3 format? In addition, is the recording quality better than on good minidisc recorder´s? Please enlighten me!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-06-11 22:13
...if the recording quality for [brand xyz] is as good as on cd´s
Technically, it can't. MP3 is a lossy format - things we don't, can't hear are simply omitted, read: skipped and lost forever. CD plays at 44kHz x 16 bit x stereo = 176 kBytes per second. Most "expensive" MP3 is at 320 kBit.
The good news is: The average listener won't hear a difference with a (good) 128 kbit encoder; hardly anyone will be able to tell a 320 kbit MP3 from a CD.
One question to Clarnibass: You said you record rehearsals and concerts. Is that legit? I mean, I can't bring my handycam into a [movie] theatre; can one bring an mp3 recorder to an opera or a concert?
--
Ben
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2006-06-11 22:47
I used the minidisc for a long time, but have larned over the years that ALL sony products are a huge pain neck.
The thing wouldn't transfer to a computer, the software was awful, and once recorded, you couldnt' do ANYTHING with your recording. To top it all off, the unit was 400 dollars, and then wasn't compatible with my new Mac. It was a joke, and I havn't used it in ages.
The solution? Use yout laptop if you have one... or get an ipod and a little microphone thing for it. The recordings will not be of the best quality but for purposes of studying yourself play it should be fine. The best part? You will actually be able to use the recording AND THE IPOD when you are done, as opposed to using it for nothing, like the joke that is the Sony MD.... DO NOT BUY A MD RECORDER THEY HAVE NO PURPOSE AND ARE TERRIBLE!!
If you really need good sound just get a really good mic and get some good software for your computer to record practice sessions.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-06-12 06:18
Tictatux, I'll record my group's rehearsals and concerts and all the players know I'm recording. It is not like I'm recording them behind their back or make money. I simply want to have a memory of it.
I actually contacted all the composers of the pieces we play, and they were very excited that I can record it and send them our version. I can't think why it wouldn't be legit to record for my own memory and not for commercial purposes, especially if all players and composers don't mind.
Sean.Perrin, if the rehearsals and concerts all were in my apartment, then sure, I could record it to my computer. I actually have a reasonable sound card and mixer and I use Cubase for recordings. The quality is of course much better than any minidisk or mp3 recorder could do, but it is not portable.
I actually have a pretty old Sony minidisk which still works fine, and I could use that, but I want a mp3 recorder especially to be able to just plug it to the computer and use it as a hard drive. Any recorder that requires a software I'm not interested in.
From asking some more people it looks like Iaudio and Iriver are pretty much the only options (other than Ipod), and seems that the Iaudio, although it has some disadvantage compared with the Iriver, is better for what I need.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-06-12 14:30
The biggest factor is the microphone.
The best you can do with minidisc is stereo electret
This is satisfactory for many purposes, but if you want to ENJOY the product that you record, consider an ENG (electronic news gathering) portable that can accommodate a condenser mic (phantom power, xlr connectors) such as found in the Marantz and Edirol units. The flash card media record just as well as minidisc.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-06-12 14:51
sean,
That's discouraging!
I figured that, when I got patient, I could get some use out of the computer files generated by the Sony.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2006-06-12 22:11
Clarnibass...
your concerts arn't in your apartment? Too bad, mine all are, it's VERY convenient! Haha... just kidding.
Other than the MP3 recorders discussed I have nothing more to offer though... there is kind of a void in this area in the digital music age right now. Everyone thought Sony MD would come out on top... and hell, it might have if Sony had any clue how to make products even remotely usable!
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: TheVelho
Date: 2006-06-13 08:19
Hello,
I've got an iAudio X5 hard drive mp3 player and the internal microphone is surprisingly good, much better, for example, than my friend's MD+microphone setup.
I'll send a link where you can listen to what it sounds like, if you want.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-06-13 09:36
Hi TheVelho, thanks very much, I would like to hear the recording from the iAudio. Even before reading your post I was almost set on the iAudio X5 or the iRiver H340, but I have to see if I can buy it from Amazon (maybe it is the American version which doesn't include everything for some reason) or here (1.5 times more expensive).
Is it possible to have it record while it is plugged and not worry about the battery?
Thanks very much!
Post Edited (2006-06-13 11:03)
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Author: beejay
Date: 2006-06-13 10:12
Be careful clarnibass. The iaudio specifications include only an internal mike and a line-in socket that is not adapted to an external mike.
I think you have to try very hard to beat an MD recorder with a good mike, such as the Sony ECM-MS907 that I use, or a really good analogue recorder.
There also seems to be a misconception that you only have to get the right piece of equipment and plonk it in front of your clarinet for you to start sounding like Sabine Meyer. Alas no.
Remember that recording engineers are highly paid magicians for good reason. They know the accoustical properties of instruments. They can correctly assess the accoustics of a hall. They know exactly where to place the mike or mikes.
By luck, I have made some beautiful recordings with my Sony MD, but these are greatly outnumbered by disappointing duds where the music sounds thin and lifeless. Success depends on so many factors.
Incidentally, the clarinet is a horrible instrument to record unless you get everything just right.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-06-13 10:49
"Be careful clarnibass. The iaudio specifications include only an internal mike and a line-in socket that is not adapted to an external mike."
A condenser microphone that requires phantom power and connects with an XLR cable, probably, but are you sure about minidisk type microphones? I think the same type microphones you can use with a minidisk you can also use with the mp3 recorder, or am I wrong?
"There also seems to be a misconception that you only have to get the right piece of equipment and plonk it in front of your clarinet for you to start sounding like Sabine Meyer. Alas no...." etc.
If I gave the impression that I believe that misconception and I am trying to do a professional recording of my group, that I think the mp3 recorder would make me sound like Sabine Meyer (instead of how I want to sound), or that I think recording engineers are not important, then of course that wasn't my intention, although I can't see where I said all that.
I've narrowed it down to the iRiver H340, or the iAudio X5 (or X5L). I'll probably decide by the end of the week.
I would like to know what stereo microphone should I get for a better sound than the built in microphone? Or more specifically, what should I expect the price range to be for a microphone like that?
Thanks very much!
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Author: TheVelho
Date: 2006-06-13 12:10
Well, I'll make a little recording of voice, guitar and random sounds and send it to you.
Whe you record with the X5, you can sometimes hear the hard drive spinning, but the player cleverly stops it when the record starts.
If I were you, I would take the L version (X5L) which is slightly bulkier but has +15 hours of battery life that the normal version, which is really nice (you charge less often and your battery lasts longer).
You can try buying the player on the website www.mp3-player.de, I live in France and it worked well. I dont know if you can order it from america on websites such as amazon.com, or if you can you will probably have to pay taxes. (You live in Israel ? How much do they cost there?)
I also think that the X5 microphone is better than the H340 one. A friend of mine had the H320 and we were able to compare both. (To be franc, I prefer the X5 to the H3X0, they are about the same but the X5 is smaller and has wins by little, and the H340 is not produced anymore by iriver.)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-06-13 13:41
Thanks very much TheVelho, I'll just email you with more questions I have.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2006-06-13 14:51
Clarinbass,
My remark about sounding like Sabine Meyer (or not) was not directed at you, and apologies if you took it that way. I simply wanted to say that I have more often than not been disappointed with recordings of concerts in which I have participated, and occasionally I have been delighted.
I do think an external mike is important, since the built-in microphone if the MP3 recorder is said to be for speech only.
Hope you will give us a review if you do get the player, since I too need to replace my MD recorder.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-06-15 19:06
OK I asked a friend that has the X5, and a friend that has the H340, and listened to both. The sound quality when just listening to music on both is very good and basically the same. I also found an Israeli forum especially about mp3 players and there was even sub forums for iRiver and iAudio. One person in particular have both and helped a lot.
Anyway, I just bought the iRiver H340. I bought it mainly because of all the accessories that come with it, the extra 10GB, and some convinience reasons (for example the mic plugs into the device without a deck).
I haven't tried it yet but maybe I'll get a chance to record a concert tomorrow (with the external mic that comes with it) and report back how it records.
Thanks everyone for your help!
P.S. TheVelho - I don't need the audio samples anymore, but thanks very much for your offer!
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2006-06-16 16:47
I don't find the MZ-NH700, that I got unused on ebay for a quarter of the price of the flash card Edirol, lacking in any way. It can record in CD quality (according to Sony) and, at a slightly lesser quality, put almost 8 hours on a 1 GB disc. As for the inconvenience mentioned, this is apparently because of recording a long rehearsal in one stretch without adding a track mark. If the unit is kept within reach, the user can hit a button at any time to break up a recording into easily accessable units. I haven't experienced the long copying times mentioned with my unit.
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Author: mnhnhyouh
Date: 2006-06-22 03:00
The iRiver and iAudio, will soon, with Rockbox, an alternate firmware, support lossless (.wav) recording.
Be careful about claims about CD quality recording. If it isnt lossless, it isnt CD quality, and the minidisks dont do lossless, they record in ATRAC, a very poor compression standard.
An older iRiver, the H120 or H140 will presently record in .wav, and you can find about them at
misticriver.net
h
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