 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tracymiller
Date: 2006-06-12 03:57
I currently have been playing on a Buffet R-13 "Greenline" Bb Clarinet, and have been completly satisfied with it. But lately, I've found it quite hard to find flexibiltity and ease across the registers. And sometimes intonation could be disappointing. I know quite a few people who bought the Buffet R-13 Prestige Bell (M'Pingo Wood) and a Buffet RC Bell, and said that it really helped with overall tone, flexibility, intonation, and added more warmth to the sound. Would anyone here recommend the Prestige bells that are made out of M'Pingo wood?
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-06-12 04:53
Bell affects only the lowest two holes.
So other than e/b and even lesser degree on f/c it doesn't do anything.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-06-12 06:23
And the SHAPE of the bell would have far, far more effect than the material.
It is the vibrating AIR column that is by far the most significant for the sound coming from a wokodwind.
The material is only a container to define the shape of that air column. The surface finish of the interior would probably account for the largest difference between mpingo and polymer materials, all other things being equal. The mouthpiece is a different situation, because the material affects the way the REED rebounds off it, and the movement of the reed affects the sound a lot.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-06-12 07:50
I've noticed considerable differences in more than just the lowest two notes when trying out different bells.
Call it a placebo if you like, but it was very noticeable to me.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2006-06-12 08:12
You would, most people do. Bells and barrels aren't specifically matched to assembly line instruments, so it's a crapshoot whether or not it'll be the best match for your situation. In all likelihood you would benefit from trying some different things. Remember to minimize variables. Don't pop on a bell and a barrel and then play it, try one or the other. It's probable that the people that acquired those particular bells found one that was a better match for their instrument, and you might find something different from theirs that works for you. Also, this topic has been discussed rather extensively in threads, use the search function and you'll find some interesting information.
Good Luck!
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-06-12 10:21
(Disclaimer - I am maker of the Forte' C clarinet)
Some people find that a different bell - probably the interior dimensions and not the material so much - makes a difference in some tuning aspects as well as the transition from the lower to clarion registers. Backun (and perhaps others that I am not aware of) makes aftermarket bells that have pleased many and for whatever reasons reportedly helps intonation and register transitions. We have used the concept of a TRAC (Tuned Acoustic Resonance Chamber) in our Forte' C bell which, IOHO, improves intonation in the lower notes, tone, and smoothes register transition. I agree that you should try several bells before just buying one off the shelf to see if it helps your situation.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2006-06-12 11:57
I wonder if you're asking the right question, Tracy. You say that you "have been completly satisfied with" your clarinet but have noticed a problem "lately." Now it could be that you've progressed to a new level of playing or sensitivity to your playing and that accounts for the "lately." On the other hand, if the issues have only developed "lately," I would be more inclined to look for the problem in something that has changed rather than something that has remained constant and, I think there are few aspects of the clarinet more constant under normal conditions than the bell.
What, exactly, do you mean by "lack of flexibility" across the break? Can you describe this symptom in more detail? Which notes have occasional intonation issues? (BTW, if they are occasional as opposed to consistent, I would be more inclined to look to the player than the instrument. What do you observe about yourself when this happens, e.g., how far into your playing session does the problem arise? Does it arise when you are playing alone or with others? Specifically which others, if that's the case?)
On a slightly different note, has anyone done any large sample, controlled (or at least semi-controlled) tests or tests using sensitive recording equipment comparing standard and after-market bells?
If you have a teacher, you might want to bring up this issue with her/him. If not, perhaps arranging a few lessons with a good one would help isolate your problem. BTW, do you, by any chance, use a Rovner ligature?
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-06-12 12:26
(Disclaimer - I am maker of the Forte' C clarinet)
Very good suggestions Jack. As always I believe in the "top down" theory where the player is the most important aspect in the sound produced (brain, embouchure, technique) next reed, mouthpiece, ligature, barrel, bore, instrument, and then bell. All of these aspects form, and to some degree modify, the fluctuating air column responsible for the sound emitted and any one or interactive combination of two or more can influence tone and intonation. The bell design does play a minor role in the resistance of the instrument and also the intonation of the lower notes. The influence of the bell increases with the number of tone holes covered with fingers or pads. The Backun bell uses multiple taper changes to influence sound and resistance as does our TRAC (see before) with an actual additional chamber in the bell. Indeed, we have extensively studied the spectrographic acoustic properties of the sound produced by our "C" clarinet with and without TRAC in a pretty scientific and statistically designed way and we are satisfied with a documented change. Results with any hardware changes will of course vary by individual due to the huge influences of the top down theory. We have not studied other after-market bells in a consistent way other than to try and discern their form and acoustic effects.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-06-12 15:01
Dr. Henderson,
Would you be kind enough to publish/share your measured acoustic spectra with and without the TRAC chamber? I'd find it very interesting.
I imagine sets of spectra for all the notes in the three registers --with a trace for each configuration --a bit of work.
Bob Phillips
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-06-12 17:39
Bob,
I have done more than a fair amount of acoustic spectral work including developing spectral analysis algorithms for what some of us call "bright" and "dark" tonal quality. I have purchased use rights to a program called "Spectrogram" - http://www.visualizationsoftware.com/gram.html - which I have extensively modified for my own use and as a software package for sale in reed and instrument quality control applications. For routine spectral analysis I use a sampling rate of 96 kHz at 16 bit resolution, dual channel, 1024 Fast Fourier Transform bits (about as fast as a PC can process real time), dual channel and band range 0-15,025 which is below and above human hearing range. The testing has to be done in a specially designed and miked sound testing booth because of microphone issues showing up in the spectral tracings. Both major frequency and even and odd harmonic series are compared using specialized analysis programs. Since the clarinet has more than a fair amount of odd harmonic series frequency patterns a proprietary analysis must be done to compute our definition of tonal quality.
Since we are seeking a patent - application not yet completed - on the characteristics of bell modification using the TRAC approach, the data is proprietary. I guess that you will have to try a Forte' C and make your own evaluation of the tonal and intonation issues.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-06-12 19:32
(Disclaimer - I have no relationships with the software company and get no financial gain and only have purchased rights to the software myself)
If you wish to play around and make your own spectra you can download a trial copy of Spectrogram from the link above and if you have a decent sound card on your computer and a good microphone you can play some notes and get your own spectra then try changing hardware and note the changes in the spectra. The devil is in the details of the relationships of the harmonic series as to what we interpret as tonal qualities but this is a fun exercise and may get you started on your own investigations of hardware changes! Like most everything else in life and science the cost of sophistication in spectral analysis goes up geometrically with gaining increased information content and analysis of the data.
L. Omar Henderson
Post Edited (2006-06-12 19:36)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-06-12 21:01
The French clarinet design, as made by Buffet, has a flare that begins about 2/3 of the way down the lower joint and continues through the end of the bell. The design also has a substantial contraction at the top of the bell, which helps reflect the vibrations back up the instrument. Artist adjusters tweak both the flare and the contraction.
A bell with a different interior design can made a substantial difference in the way the instrument sounds. At the first clarinet symposium in 1905, a student played with a Backun bell. Guy Chadash had him change to his Buffet bell, and the sound was noticeably different. See http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2005/04/000299.txt
Alvin Swiney has written that the wood itself makes a big difference. See http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1999/11/000876.txt.
It's certainly possible that, as Alvin wrote, differences in the surface of the wood can make a difference, and that a bell made of wood with an open grain can improve playing qualities. However, I frankly doubt that the type of wood or the weight of the bell makes much difference.
Before you get a new bell, I suggest that you take the one you have to someone who knows how to alter it. You'll save money, and you'll also get something that's specifically adjusted to your instrument and style of playing.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-06-12 21:22
Gordon wrote:
"It is the vibrating AIR column that is by far the most significant for the sound coming from a wokodwind.
The material is only a container to define the shape of that air column. The surface finish of the interior would probably account for the largest difference between mpingo and polymer materials, all other things being equal. The mouthpiece is a different situation, because the material affects the way the REED rebounds off it, and the movement of the reed affects the sound a lot."
___________________________________________________________
1. Yes, the AIR column produces vibration that is more significant than the vibration in the material. But the vibrating material itself is the most significant factor for the tone color. Even the same material which can be softer, more grainy etc. will yield different results.
To say that the material makes no difference is just ridicules. Are the authors of the acoustical works that make such claims also believes in the 'Earth is flat' theory?
2. Can someone explain to me? How on the Earth two identical mouthpiece designs with identical facings applied on the different material can affect the way the REED rebounds off it? I guess the facing surface must be a rubber band?
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2006-06-12 21:29)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-06-12 22:20
Vytas wrote:
> To say that the material makes no difference is just
> ridicules. Are the authors of the acoustical works that make
> such claims also believes in the 'Earth is flat' theory?
No, people like me actually measure things, like the surface of the earth. Or determine that the amplitude of vibration of the material is 1/1,000,000th the amplitude of the air column.
Assigning ridicule to people who you know not is probably counterproductive.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-06-13 00:26
"And the SHAPE of the bell would have far, far more effect than the material."
___________________________________________________________
Absolutely!
The bell basically acts as a hole for the lowest tones. The size of the enter bore affects the response, volume and tuning somewhat. Length and shape of the bell affects tuning of the LT.
Just recently I overhauled Albert system clarinet in the key of C. In comparison to entire scale E/B and F/C were very stuffy and muffled. I've removed about 2mm from the bell. (enlarged the enter bore by 2mm) It worked like a magic. All problems suddenly disappeared. Mr. Moennig used similar treatment for the long B.
BTW I'm not talking about the tone anymore. The king of the jungle found it to be counterproductive.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-06-13 04:46
Vytas wrote:
"1. Yes, the AIR column produces vibration that is more significant than the vibration in the material. But the vibrating material itself is the most significant factor for the tone color. Even the same material which can be softer, more grainy etc. will yield different results. To say that the material makes no difference is just ridicules. "
Acoustic scientists have stated that the material (as opposed to the surface) is irrelevant, because of its insignificant amplitude, as Mark indicates. With flutes, double blind testing has been done that supports these statements. Unless any testing is "double blind", it carries no weight in a field where there are highly subjective influences.
"...Are the authors of the acoustical works that make such claims also believes in the 'Earth is flat' theory?"
No. they make claims based on what is known, not on what is believed. They accept objective evidence over subjective.
"2. Can someone explain to me? How on the Earth two identical mouthpiece designs with identical facings applied on the different material can affect the way the REED rebounds off it? I guess the facing surface must be a rubber band?"
Yes, indeed, like a rubber band. ALL solid materials behave with different degrees of elasticity, different degrees of energy absorption when hit, and different degrees of rigidity. Hard rubber is a particularly rigid polymer.
On an aside, "liquidmetal" a metallic alloy with no crystalline structure, returns a phenomenal proportion of energy back to anything that hits it. So wouldn't it be interesting to make mouthpieces from it. It is also highly corrosion resistant, has good appearance, is light, is extremely strong, AND!!! - can be cast without high temperature (in the manner of plastic moulding, with cheap moulds) with such an accuracy that when scalpel blades are cast they do not need sharpening by grinding. Mouthpieces would not need hand facing!
See http://www.liquidmetal.com/
Particularly the bouncing ball demonstration and media material.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-06-13 05:44
http://www.liquidmetal.com/
Yeah, but is it food safe? I know there aren't any FDA regulations for mouthpieces yet, but...
--
Ben
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-06-13 07:23
"Acoustic scientists have stated that the material (as opposed to the surface) is irrelevant, because of its insignificant amplitude"
I will only add that my country's best acoustics specialist, who has master degrees in math, physics, music theory, music education, composition, and has a PHD in musicology, and is a professor specilizing in acoustics and instrument acoustics and doing research for probably over 40 years, completely agrees with what Gordon and Mark said.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-06-13 16:44
So, Gordon, what clarinet stuff has been made of liquidmetal? I'd be interested in whether a mouthpiece, barrel, reed (or, perhaps, coating for my tongue) would make a difference in tone.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-06-13 16:51
The fact is, a bell made of Jell-O
would sound just as good and as mellow
as a bell made of wood
one that's grainy and good
and with blindfolds you never could tell-o!
(we're long overdue for lousy limericks, aren't we?)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-06-13 17:29
I want a sound that's crystal clear.
'Cause I'm planning on a great career.
My teacher said: "Ah..this I knew"
He pulled out the Rose 32.
"Learn to play it and call me next year"
...GBK
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-06-14 00:40
If GBK had had a bell
of M'Pingo in his youth
He'd be a star today, with fame,
and more than one gold tooth.
But sad to say he chose to play
some etudes from a book,
instead of buying fancy gear
to give him that 'pro' look.
So now he moderates the board
and plays some when he can,
because he chose to play The Rose
and not be "M'Pingo Man".
The moral of this sad sad tale,
is: when you get some GAS;
go out my friend, and buy that gear,
don't stay home on your #$%^&*
f f goings
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-06-14 01:57
Custom bells change SOME notes, I agree.
But at what cost and to what degree?
I don't want to insult,
But a better result
Will be had with your Baermann III.
...GBK
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2006-06-14 03:09
Alright with these stupid poems.... I get a bit sick of them sometimes and can't hit the delete key on a bboard.
Has anyone stated the obvious? Why not try a bell from Morrie Backun? I'm sure I'm opening up a can of worms, however, it does seem to me to be a viable option and one worth checking out, despite the opinions of others. Why not see for yourself if it works for you?
[ Michael Norsworthy is listed as an artist on the Backun web site - GBK ]
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-06-14 04:24
Actually the best solution for the good intonation and consistent
tone quality for the long notes is to make a few more tone holes instead of
a bell,even though this is not so pleasing aesthetically.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2006-06-14 06:01
...........instead of purchasing a Backun for $500, opening a can of worms or considering the purchase of an M'Pingo bell, why not have the forcing cone in the existing bell reamed......as is done at the Buffet factory for the RC and Prestige..........
then do your Baermann III
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-06-14 06:24
Ken Shaw wrote:
"So, Gordon, what clarinet stuff has been made of liquidmetal? I'd be interested in whether a mouthpiece, barrel, reed (or, perhaps, coating for my tongue) would make a difference in tone."
As far as I am aware, nothing has been made for woodwinds. But it would be interesting to see if its energy non-absorption qualities made a difference to a mouthpiece, and it would possibly be a much cheaper alternative for making very high quality, lighter, stronger keys. I'm not too sure what damage could be done by rough handling, and how repairable it would be, but replacement of damaged parts may take over from repair, as a much cheaper option.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-06-14 14:01
Except for the lowest few note,sound waves never reach the bell.
I don't understand how this affects the sound.
Sometimes brains do lots of tricks.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-06-14 14:23
I can tell you, from having heard it myself, that a Backun bell changes the sound over the clarinet's entire range. It creates a creamy quality, with greater volume than the standard Buffet bell. On the other hand, it requires care to avoid a blaring, spread tone.
The Buffet bell creates a clearer sound with more high-frequency resonance.
I think the standard bell would be more penetrating and better for orchestral work. However, Ricardo Morales plays custom made Backun bells on his Selmer Recitals in the Philadelphia Orchestra.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-06-14 21:28
Did you hear it in a controlled, double-blind comparing situation, to eliminate all those subjective influences that we are not even aware of being subject to?
If not, then science-based "common sense" has far more validity.
If I "heard" it in a non double-blind testing situation I would give what I "heard" little credence.
Post Edited (2006-06-14 21:30)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-06-14 21:56
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
> Did you hear it in a controlled, double-blind comparing
> situation, to eliminate all those subjective influences that we
> are not even aware of being subject to?
This horse is dead.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-06-14 22:08
Gordon -
It was not a double-blind experiment. It was an advanced student playing for a master class with Guy Chadash, which I described at http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2005/04/000299.txt
I certainly saw that the student had a Backun bell, and I noticed immediately that his tone was different from the standard "Buffet noise."
When he went back to his Buffet bell, his sound was quite different, and, as Guy Chadash pointed out (and I clearly heard), more characteristic.
I recognized an unfamiliar sound when the student played with the Backun bell. I didn't know what he would sound like with the Buffet bell, but I was listening hard, and I could easily have heard the difference with my back turned.
Clarinetists sound different. I'm suspect you could hear a clear difference, in a blind test, between, say, Robert Marcellus (who had a smooth, round tone) and Anthony Gigliotti (who had a bright, resonant tone). There was at least that much difference between the sounds the student made with a Backun and a Buffet bell.
While I agree that expectations and subjective matters can influence our judgment, there is obviously a point where things are different enough that anyone can recognize it. I need no double blind test to distinguish between a clarinet and a violin. Neither do I need one to distinguish between Benny Goodman and Acker Bilk, or, in this case, two distinctly different clarinet sounds.
A double blind test is surely definitive, but science isn't the only way to make distinctions.
Ken Shaw
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Author: jack
Date: 2006-06-15 06:05
I found that the only way
to reverveabrate in a liquid metal way
was to play a tennis ball
off a Head Tennis Racquet -
the results were quite striking
Not very poetic, maybe it's a limerick, I really don't know. But the liquid metal alloy makes the most powerful tennis racquet I have tried. Much more powerful than the original Wilson Profile or the Head Ti.S7 which was actually banned by the USTA because of the length of it's string pattern, which just happened to make it the most powerful racquet around.
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-06-15 10:56
having heard people swap around bells when trying out Backun gear at conferences (and not in the exhibition hall) i can assure Gordon (who i doubt has actually ever seen a Backun bell as there are only a few in NZ) that there is definately a different sound produced and that this is noticable on more than just the "bell tones"
one reason for this is probably that they usually (as far as i have observed) don't utilise the "choke effect" to brighten the sound. This "choke" (described somewhere above) has a pronounced acoustical effect and i believe is the reason that the bell can influence tone and intonation on notes emmited further up the tube.
While it might seem unlikely that the bell could influence intonation on a note such as top space G, it would appear that this is so- i would venture that the change in resistance on the horn is a significant factor.
Gordon- my girlfriend was just over from the states for a month, a pity we didn't pop by your place on the way to the airport so you could hear both of us play her R13 with her Backun bell and then my R13 bell, we could have done a double blind test, and then repeated it using my clarinet.
keep playing the good tunes
donald
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-06-15 11:00
"While I agree that expectations and subjective matters can influence our judgment, there is obviously a point where things are different enough that anyone can recognize it. I need no double blind test to distinguish between a clarinet and a violin. Neither do I need one to distinguish between Benny Goodman and Acker Bilk, or, in this case, two distinctly different clarinet sounds.
A double blind test is surely definitive, but science isn't the only way to make distinctions."
Well said, horses dead or not.
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2006-06-15 12:16
lets not forget feel. Sound is important but feel is too.
For anyone curious if a bell can really affect change, a free and easy experiment t those people that own two clarinets is to try swapping bells (Bb clarinet - A clarinet) or whatever suites you. I think you may find a difference in the playing experience (or you may not...I just did this experiment, and for me there was a different feel but not much change in sound)...even though the two bells may be designed to be the same, there are usually slight differences.
I define the playing experience as feel, sound, and response combined.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: anonrob
Date: 2006-06-16 01:29
As interesting as the discussion of acoustics and bells may be, a sudden change inflexibility may be something as simple as a small leak. It seems that the first thing to do is have the instrument checked by a technician. I have been playing a Greenline for several years and have found it to be very reliable and consistant. I did switch to a Pyne barrell, but that was more related to my chanigng mpcs than anything else.
Rob Hughes
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