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Author: jim S.
Date: 2006-06-05 03:51
Is Honda's Battle of the Bands Campaign an effective way to encourage and maintain funding for music education nationally in the elementary and high schools as pressures build to cut funding and shift funding to "basics"?
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-06-05 22:03
Based on what I see it is good publicity for band in general.
However, these styles of Bands tend to play extremely poorly. When I say I don't mean that they can't play loud or can't play their music. I mean that they play with horrific tones and grotesquely out of tune. The Tubas 'BLAT' which doesn't even really resemble a tone, and the woodwinds might as well not even be there.
However, Administrators like loud bands, mainly because administrators don't have a clue what a band should sound like. Seeing, or having, a loud band is, for some reason, encouragement for an administrator that something good is happening in the Band Room everyday. This may or may not be so. Some of these schools have UNREAL, unbelieveably good concert bands. But, many do not.
If you've seen the movie "Drumline" then you know that the "Competitive Hype" is played up alot and Band Directors don't typically let their students act like idiots, but it make the programs look "sexy."
I say all that to say that it has its pros and cons. Good and bad. Just like everything else.
Some food for thought. Have you ever seen a band that performs in this style go to a competition and let itself be adjudicated?
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Author: steve s
Date: 2006-06-06 18:48
It is unclear to me why this program appears limited to HBCU. Is the purpose to raise funds for music departments at HBCU?
s.
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-06-07 13:06
Because only Bands from HBCU's play in this style. It is "for the masses." They assume that classical music and corps style marching are not appealing.
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Author: steve s
Date: 2006-06-07 13:59
that's odd...i played for four seasons in the northwestern univ mb in the early 70s, and some of our fundamentals and moves were similar to those of the HBCU bands under discussion. however, under JPP, we strived for a symphonic sound. i am unaware of racial characteristics that lead to differentation of mb perormance practices... s.
Post Edited (2006-06-07 14:02)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-06-07 15:20
Marching bands = lowbrow entertainment, NOT music. Let's not confuse the two. If this forum is about MUSIC, then marching bands should not even be discussed here. If this forum is about any activity that even remotely involves musical instruments, then sure, talk about marching bands.
Personally, I hate marching bands so much that I'd rather sleep through fifty posts about the effects of plating on the sound of ligatures, then hear about marching bands. Just my zero cents' worth.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-06-07 15:27
Pmgoff78,
I am intrigued by many of your statements. Can you tell where you found evidence to support:
1. "However, Administrators like loud bands, mainly because administrators don't have a clue what a band should sound like. Seeing, or having, a loud band is, for some reason, encouragement for an administrator that something good is happening in the Band Room everyday."
2. "However, these styles of Bands tend to play extremely poorly.... I mean that they play with horrific tones and grotesquely out of tune."
3. "They assume that classical music and corps style marching are not appealing."
You have made several declarative statements. Is there backing (literature or research findings) for these notions or have you, perhaps, over-stated things a bit.
HRL
Post Edited (2006-06-07 15:51)
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2006-06-07 18:17
This is a very interesting topic.
1. Administrators for the most part do want a big and loud band. Is there statistical research on this topic? I doubt it. But remember what drives a principal's ideas. The community. So this statement may be true in Atlanta or Memphis but not somewhere else. Also look at the goal of the program. Is the goal of a BOA Grand National Band the same as an inner city HBCU style band? In ways yes and ways no. Every band wants kids to join to promote music and give kids an opportunity. Is going to BOA going to drive many inner city kids to band? Probably not. There are exceptions, so do not ask for statistical research! You have to tailor your program to the community while remembering the purpose of music education.
2. Do these bands play out of tune and with terrible sounds? Sometimes. Don't many corp style bands play out of tune and sound like dung? I don't think it is a HBCU thing vs. corp thing. I think it is a band thing that every band director works on every day.
3. Do HBCU bands think corp style is unappealing and boring? Some. The TSU band director(not Graves but the guy before him) said that his influence was the Michigan Marching Band. The MMB must not have been too boring!
What is the bottom line of music education?
"The mission of MENC: The National Association for Music Education is to advance music education by encouraging the study and making of music by all."
Who decides what is music and what is not music? A kid on a rural farm is going to have a different answer than an inner city kid. A kid in Europe is going to have a different answer than a kid from America.
As a band director, our mission is to teach the curriculum and abide by the state and national standards. If this can be done and support a marching band, then go for it. If the goal of a music program is to send a kid to a conservatory, then most schools will fail. If the mission of a music program is to enrich a student's life by exposing him/her to music, then most programs are a success. Who cares if you play out of tune and with a sound uncharacteristic of an orchestral musician. In the long run, it does not matter. But that expose to music will. Kids are not going to remember how they played. They will remember how a band director changed their life! Isn't that why many of us are posting on here anyway!
As a last statement, I will say remember your community and remember your heritage. I went to a performing arts high school, a major corp style marching band(UT) and am now teaching an inner city HBCU style marching band. Did I hate it at first? Yes. Did I try to understand it and learn as much as possible about it? Yes.
Brandon Hood
Director, Havenview Mighty Tiger Marching Band
Memphis, TN
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-06-07 19:23
Good points, Brandon, but let me tell a little personal story from a different perspective: My first two years in high school were terrific, as far as I was concerned -- we had a band director who was opposed to marching bands and instead concentrated his efforts on the concert bands and associated smaller groups (clarinet choir and other chamber groups, solo and ensemble festivals, etc.) We had one of the top concert bands in the state, we had probably the top high school orchestra in the state, we had lots of players in all kinds of honors bands, etc. etc. And no marching band. Yet we had plenty of community support for our efforts. Then the hammer fell. My senior year, the state of Maryland began forced school busing for racial integration, and among other things, the school principal demanded that the band director start a marching band. He refused and quit (retired from teaching music altogether, in fact). We got a new band director who was thoroughly incompetent in every respect, but by God, we now had a marching band! We overnight went from one of the best concert band programs to one of the worst in the state. Many of our best players quit music altogether. I had planned to study music in college, but that senior year gave me a rude awakening and I ended up studying engineering instead. What should have been one of the best years of my life, become a nightmare, and probably more than anything caused me to forego what I really love, music, for another field.
Is it fair for me to blame this on marching bands? No, but I think you can see from this why I'm not a fan of them. The problem, as I see it, is that too many times marching and concert bands are treated as mutually exclusive --- either/or --- rather than co-existing. Most schools don't have enough resources to support strong 'classical' and marching programs together; and as was pointed out by one of the other posters, many students don't have enough time in their schedules (or home lives) for both. So when the dollar crunch comes, who generally gets eliminated? Guess.
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-06-08 00:25
True, there's no statistical research to support my statements. It's a terrible pity that my SUPERINTENDENT told me that the band had to be loud and that corps style marching and classical music was NOT appealing. That is my unfortunate experience in this area. Plus, I could understand why he thought that way when I saw all the other bands in the community. They played exactly the way he described.
So, the community drives the program...yes. Therefore, the communities that want competitive programs get that. How competitive it is is up to the Staff. Some people don't even bother with the competitive aspects of it. Those bands tend to win ALOT. Some bands overemphasize the competitive aspect and they win...some. Some bands just want to improve and their kids are hard-working average kids. I personally cannot be against an activity that these average kids enjoy....especially when it's legal. Most of the average kids will never have an experience like that again. Why poo poo on it?
True, there are tons of bands who play out of tune and out of tone...in ALL styles. It's a pity that I've NEVER seen a "show band' play in tune or in tone. By never, I mean never. There are, however, hundreds of corps style bands that do both of these things routinely. BUT, both styles of marching band have and are producing stellar concert bands. So poor music education can't be blamed on marching band, blame it on bad directors. The kids are clearly capable, there must be a disconnect. But the director taught them, so maybe the community needs to be educated too.
There are band programs in this country who have won BOTH National Titles and been invited to perform at the Midwest Clinic. So please don't tell me that marching band isn't about music, because there are plenty of students playing musically in marching band every season, and clearly their concert bands aren't suffering. Just because your band director back in the day was opposed to marching band doesn't mean that is either a) all bad or b) unmusical. there are Directors who are as good or better than yours was, period. However, just because I happen to enjoy marching band doesn't mean it's a) all good or b) 100% musical. There's pros and cons to everything. A long season is hard on a program, especially when that program carries expectation with it. The staff has to balance that for the kids so that they can receive a great MUSICAL experience and a great overall journey. School is about the journey and if you think band is all about music you're wrong. Period. Yes, that's a blanket statement and I stand by it. It's called 'Heartware', as opposed to 'Hardware.'
When we say that kids don't have enough time...that's a cop out. The communities with the really strong programs also have really strong parents who teach their kids to work their tails off. Bottom line. Work or don't work, you reap what you sow.
So, hatred of the activity is only reaping negativity. Focusing on the programs who are succeeding and spreading their message, that you can have a SUPERIOR Marching and Concert Band, spreads positivity. All I'm saying is that a band that can play loud and boogie around could easily play in tune and in tone, and is probably capable already, but that is not expected. Imagine what would happen if it was expected of them, if we educated the community to the more well-rounded music education the kids could be receiving. I teach in a school system with 95% show bands. I'm screaming this stuff every year. Maybe, just maybe, one year someone will listen and the quality of the music education will improve. BTW - it isn't all bad, some of these huge show bands have Excellent Concert Bands. You just don't know because you aren't looking. Some of us have let one bad experience color our perception of what millions of kids enjoy. How sad.
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2006-06-08 00:39
Dave:
As you are living proof, for every director that works hard to change lives for the better, there are sadly those that that do the opposite. I am in complete agreement with you regarding my dislike for marching band in HS. I refused to march and played a mallet instrument in the pit! I still disagree with your view on marching band not being music.
Author: pmgoff78
Because only Bands from HBCU's play in this style. It is "for the masses." They assume that classical music and corps style marching are not appealing.
To many of these students classical music is not appealing. Why is this an assumption? If I ask my kids what appeals to them more, Beethoven or TI, TI will win. Why should they be looked down upon merely because rap and hip hop is closer to their culture? As a teacher it is my job to expose them to different styles(national standard), but not to make them like this style of music.
Author: pmgoff78
Some food for thought. Have you ever seen a band that performs in this style go to a competition and let itself be adjudicated?
Yes. I see adjudication sheets after every competition. Oh, do you mean have you ever seen them go to the state marching contests? Typically no since state marching contests are typically geared towards corp style bands. On the other side, I haven't seen too many corp style bands come and throw down at our showdowns and BotBands. Most HBCU bands(the real college ones) do not get adjudicated. I do not remember get adjudicated when I was at UT though either(WE DIDN'T).
Each is different, neither is good nor bad. Each reflects the community and culture(most of the time Dave!).
Brandon Hood
Director, Havenview Mighty Tiger Marching Band
Memphis, TN
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-06-08 14:10
Throwing down.....not educational terminology. I prefer performing well.
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