 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-06-04 06:56
I have a lot of trouble playing the B third line on the staff. It's seems very unstable. About half the time I get squeeks and unstable notes especially if I repete the note several times. Is this just a problem note that I will learn to deal with or is something wrong. This occurs on both my YLC-450 clarinets and both are new. I'm using a Vandoran 5RV mpc and vandoran 1-1/2 reeds.
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2006-06-04 08:26
Make sure all holes are covered and that you don't touch any other keys then B key (touching C key also no problem). It is ofcourse a note in a different register, but shouldn't be that difficult.
I think vandoren 1-1/2 is too thin, but I don't know the mouth piece (I use B40 and VD2-1/2 or actually VD3 - V12 version)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-06-04 11:32
5RV is the closest MP in the Vandoren series. Combining that with a 1-1½ strength reed gives almost no resistance. Try harder reeds for a start. 5RV is a good beginners MP and is meant to be played with medium/hard reeds. This will also give you more stability to the sound.
Post Edited (2006-06-04 11:33)
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Author: Avie
Date: 2006-06-04 12:48
YCL, I think it is a problem that we all have to learn to deal with. Crossing the break is always difficult especially for a beginning clarinetist. The B also responds better on some clarinets than others. You may get a better response by pressing the C key along with the B key but is not possible in some passages. I have better luck with my Buffet using 2.5 VD. reeds with my 5rv lyre MP. A little extra breath support and slightly differant embochure may be in order. Have a tech check out the B pads for leaks and key levers and if they is sealing properly then its practice, practice, practice...... You may want to check and see if it only occurs while crossing the break or anytime you play the B with either lever. Both pads should be timed PERFECTLY to close at exactly the same time when not using the C key. We have some excellant techs on this BB that can help you further with this common problem. You may also want to do a search.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-06-04 13:01
The problem is 90% sure be that the F/C pad and the E/B pad are out of adjustment.
Test 1: Play the middle B with your right little finger off the F/C key and your left little finger on the E/B key, using light finger pressure. If the note comes out poorly, put your right little finger down on the F/C key and play again. If the note becomes good, the F/C pad is too high.
Test 2: If the middle B doesn't play well with both fingers down lightly, press your left little finger down hard and try again. If the note becomes good, the E/B pad is too high.
The balance between these pads is controlled by the crow's-foot lever on the bottom of the right low F key, which gets out of adjustment easily.
For a more exact test, cut a strip of cigarette paper or newspaper about 1/8" wide and 2" long. Put about 1/2" of the strip under the low F pad, press down (not too hard) on the low E key and slide the paper out. Then put the paper under the low E key and do the same thing.
The sliding resistance should be identical under the two pads. If they aren't, the cow's-foot lever needs to be bent slightly to make the adjustment.
The pads may also not seal evenly on the rims. You can test this by putting the test paper at various points around the rims of the pads. The sliding resistance should be the same all the way around.
The bending is a simple adjustment, but, particularly if the pads are not seated perfectly, you should take it to a repair shop.
Ken Shaw
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Author: hans
Date: 2006-06-04 15:32
YCL-450,
Carefully check your bridge adjustment.
Not that it's very relevant, but, according to the chart on VD's site, 5RV is not their "closest".
I have no trouble playing a 5RV with a 1 1/2 reed, except for the very poor tone quality that results. When you have built up your embouchure, try using stiffer reeds.
Get an experienced player to test your clarinet to see if there is something wrong with it.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-06-04 16:37
I think vandoren 1-1/2 is too thin, but I don't know the mouth piece (I use B40 and VD2-1/2 or actually VD3 - V12 version)
Going to #2 VD did help but not eliminate completely. I'm sure I'm covering all the holes. Since I get the same problem on both horns it must be me or setup.
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Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-06-04 16:42
5RV is the closest MP in the Vandoren series. Combining that with a 1-1½ strength reed gives almost no resistance. Try harder reeds for a start. 5RV is a good beginners MP and is meant to be played with medium/hard reeds. This will also give you more stability to the sound.
Ok, I didn't know that. I guess I'll try some VD #2 selects. The #2 regulars seem to help but whew! they are resistent.
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Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-06-04 16:48
YCL, I think it is a problem that we all have to learn to deal with. Crossing the break is always difficult especially for a beginning clarinetist. The B also responds better on some clarinets than others. You may get a better response by pressing the C key along with the B key but is not possible in some passages. I have better luck with my Buffet using 2.5 VD. reeds with my 5rv lyre MP. A little extra breath support and slightly differant embochure may be in order. Have a tech check out the B pads for leaks and key levers and if they is sealing properly then its practice, practice, practice...... You may want to check and see if it only occurs while crossing the break or anytime you play the B with either lever. Both pads should be timed PERFECTLY to close at exactly the same time when not using the C key. We have some excellant techs on this BB that can help you further with this common problem. You may also want to do a search.
Yeah I tried using the C key with the B but didn't do any good. Actually the problem doesn't occur when crossing the break. It seems to be associated with a dry reed.
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Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-06-04 16:54
Thanks Ken for the detailed testing method. I will take your advice and test the pads as you instructed.
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2006-06-04 17:25
Do try Ken's test to be sure the pads are sealing right. And, do try harder reeds for that mouthpiece. You need a reed that lets you blow and support the sound. Number 2 reeds shouldn't feel too hard on the 5RV. The softer reeds will just close up against the mouthpiece if you're blowing correctly. Vandoren V-12's seem to be better cane than the regulars or "hand-selected". Maybe try blowing up some balloons before practicing to build lung capacity and to force you to breathe diaphragmatically. My student was having a problem playing B, and the problem is cured when she blows more air through the instrument and uses the proper strength reed for her mouthpiece. Also experiment with taking more or less mouthpiece. My student needed to take more to get a fuller sound. Good luck!
Lori
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2006-06-04 18:51
I'm not sure where you are in your playing, but if you are newly working on the "break", try starting at top-space G (which is C plus the register key). Then, work your way down by placing each right hand finger down, one at a time, F,E, D, C, and finally B. You can do this slurring. See whether the notes speak freely in that scenario.
I second the reed upgrade, and suggest maybe trying another brand - say, Mitchell Lurie - for now.
Sue Tansey
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Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-06-04 19:46
For a more exact test, cut a strip of cigarette paper or newspaper about 1/8" wide and 2" long. Put about 1/2" of the strip under the low F pad, press down (not too hard) on the low E key and slide the paper out. Then put the paper under the low E key and do the same thing.
The sliding resistance should be identical under the two pads. If they aren't, the cow's-foot lever needs to be bent slightly to make the adjustment.
The pads may also not seal evenly on the rims. You can test this by putting the test paper at various points around the rims of the pads. The sliding resistance should be the same all the way around.
The bending is a simple adjustment, but, particularly if the pads are not seated perfectly, you should take it to a repair shop.
Ken Shaw
Ken I perforned the test above and this is what I found. The pull resistance between the F and E pads were slightly different but almost Unperceptible. However there was a very noticable difference in resistance around both pads. In the front there was almost no resistance but in the back where the arm attaches there was quite a bit of resistance. So the pads aren't making contact with the same resistance all around.
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-06-05 05:48
One more thing to check...I've taught students who have played a year or so in band and who managed to work themselves into rather nasty hand positions...I had one who held the instrument up by jamming her first finger, right hand underneath the Eb/Bb key. Anyway, a hand position that's out of alignment might be able to play most notes except the ones with most fingers down. It is very easy, depending on your hand position and the particular instrument you play to accidentally hit the right hand sliver key with all fingers down. This can cause quite a chirp and makes it impossible to play that B. Since a demonstration is worth a thousand words it might be worth a lesson to check hand position.
-Just a thought should all the other advice fail...
-Randy
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-06-05 14:26
Alphie wrote:
*****5RV is the closest MP in the Vandoren series. Combining that with a 1-1½ strength reed gives almost no resistance.*****
This is just wrong!
Vandoren 5RV has the tip opening around 1.07 mm. That is MEDIUM tip opening.
For instance Vandoren M13 has the tip opening around 1.00 mm and qualifies as CLOSE tip
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-06-05 14:57
YCL....maybe it's your hearing problem.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-06-05 16:26
<Alphie wrote:
*****5RV is the closest MP in the Vandoren series. Combining that with a 1-1½ strength reed gives almost no resistance.*****
This is just wrong! >
Yes I forgot the M15 and the “M13”-series (100.5-102, ML-L). But Vytas, the 5RV (106.5, MS) is marked “fermé” on the list along with the M15 (103.5, L) for the European market and is the only MP besides 11.6 (116, MS) that has a medium/short facing. The closed opening together with the short facing makes it very difficult to produce anything like a clarinet sound, at least in a good sense on 1-1½ reeds and that is the point in my argumentation. When playing a “long” note like B4 there is a big risk that the reed closes on you instead of vibrating, especially if you are a beginner.
5RV is a great beginner's MP because you can easily play medium strength reeds for better sound.
Alphie
Post Edited (2006-06-05 17:25)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-06-05 17:46
*****The closed opening together with the short facing makes it very difficult to produce anything like a clarinet sound, at least in a good sense on 1-1½ reeds and that is the point in my argumentation.*****
Vandoren recommends Tr. 3-4 reeds with Vandoren 5RV mouthpiece. For a beginner wouldn't recommend anything softer than V12 2 ½
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-06-05 17:48
5RV is a great beginner's MP because you can easily play medium strength reeds for better sound.
Oh, stronger reed -> better sound?
--
Ben
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Author: hans
Date: 2006-06-05 18:19
tictactux,
I think "stronger reed -> better sound" is an oversimplification, but in my experience playing a reed that is too soft generally diminishes the quality of the sound.
Soft reeds are useful to get beginners started, because beginners lack good embouchure and need an early successful sound production to encourage continued effort.
As the embouchure develops,stiffer reeds should be tried to find the best reed strength for the system (where "system" includes mouthpiece, embouchure, etc.). Please note that I'm not suggesting an unlimited progression of increasing reed stiffnes :-)
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-06-05 18:23
Vytas, first you wrote:
<*****5RV is the closest MP in the Vandoren series. Combining that with a 1-1½ strength reed gives almost no resistance.*****
This is just wrong!>
And then you commented:
<*****The closed opening together with the short facing makes it very difficult to produce anything like a clarinet sound, at least in a good sense on 1-1½ reeds and that is the point in my argumentation.*****
Vandoren recommends Tr. 3-4 reeds with Vandoren 5RV mouthpiece. For a beginner wouldn't recommend anything softer than V12 2 ½>
So, why wouldn’t you do that? In your first comment you imply that 1-1½ is hard enough!?
Make up your mind.
(Vandoren recommend V12 3½-5 for 5RV and trad. 3-4)
<5RV is a great beginner's MP because you can easily play medium strength reeds for better sound.
Oh, stronger reed -> better sound?>
Generally spoken yes, up to a certain point.
Alphie
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-06-05 18:37
Hans,
a reed that is too soft generally diminishes the quality of the sound
...so does too hard a read (albeit for different reasons).
Can we settle on the theory that "embouchure", "reed thickness" and "mouthpiece" form a very fragile equation where there's one sweet spot or very many bitter spots...?
--
Ben
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Author: hans
Date: 2006-06-05 18:46
Ben,
Re: "Can we settle on the theory that "embouchure", "reed thickness" and "mouthpiece" form a very fragile equation where there's one sweet spot or very many bitter spots...?"
Nicely said. Especially the part about the bitter spots.
Now I really need to go and cut some grass :-(
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-06-05 19:04
Alphie wrote:
*****In your first comment you imply that 1-1½ is hard enough!?
Make up your mind.*****
____________________________________________________
Don't get lost in your own mess. I've never said that!
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Alex M.
Date: 2006-06-05 20:04
My reed experience has been typical, I think. I started on RICOs (#2s?), and found that they were easy to blow low notes on, but the sound degenerated on almost anything above the chalemeau range. Also, the thin reeds sounded bright and blew easy for the first short while of a practice session, then went limp and soggy very quickly, producing terrible sound--brassy and bleaty.
I switched up to Vandoren 2.5s, which produced a much better and more consistent sound, but required better embouchure and were more resistent. If I stray above the 2.5s, I find the resistence too much for me and end up with a tired embouchure. Then, of course, I start leaking air and the practice session is over. Also, with too hard a reed (for me), I start to get a "hissing" noise. I suspect this is the sound of me blowing past the reed rather than vibrating it, if that makes any sense. Of course, I've only been playing about 2 months (ducks thrown tomatoes)...
Alex M.
Massachusetts
Post Edited (2006-06-06 13:47)
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