 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ben
Date: 2006-05-26 10:37
For unstained Grenadilla (like a Buffet Prestige clarinet), mostly black with some streaks of red, what causes the redness in those parts of the wood? Also, is the red part of a different density than the black part of the wood? So, would a clarinet with more red in the wood be less dense overall, and maybe sound different becuase of this?
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-05-26 12:11
it is normal, and some say it is a good indication of fine wood.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-26 12:24
Yep, it's perfectly normal to have reddish streaks in grenadilla - the colour of natural and unstained grenadilla is hugely variable as are all exotic timbers.
Why companies like Buffet and Schreiber (and others) want to paint or dye their clarinets is beyond me - I like to see the natural colour of grenadilla which is at it's best when polished, and the way the light catches the grain as well.
I find that staining or dyeing the wood is masking the natural beauty, I know some people like each joint to be uniform in colour (and this can be done by matching different billets for the best colour match) but isn't it more honest having the different shades visible? It's not going to make the instrument play any better or worse. Wood is wood.
If you can't see the grain as it's been painted or stained, I'd have more reason to worry about the quality of the wood used - it may even have numerous filled in worm holes as well.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-05-26 12:29
it may even have numerous filled in worm holes as well.
<homework>
Discuss biting habits with a grenadilla wood worm.
< />
![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-05-26 14:20
FYI:
"True" Granadillo, grenadillo, grenadilla, granadilla.....is NOT what the manufactures refer to a Grana..whatever.
Gran. cuts and lathes differently from African blackwood, which is what many clarinets are made of.
The species are different. In fact, Kingswood-another instrument wood-which is compared to rosewood, is NOT rosewood, but a variant of Dalberia.
Blackwood:
Dalberia melanoxylon
Tanzania
Granadillo: Platymiscium yucatanium, Mexico
Confusing, right? I do not know how we came to refer to clarinet wood as Granidillo. My first teacher, Paul Ferra, told me that clarinets were made of Granidillo, and that was in 1957 when he was nearly 60 years old. So, the designation is old. (He played under Toscanini and Stokowski so he was no stooge...and he wrote it down for me in Klose I book that I still have.)
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-05-26 16:32
Alseg wrote:
> Blackwood:
ALSO known as grenadilla and mpingo! BOTH these names are also perfectly proper names for Dalberia melanoxylon. I've never heard of anyone referring to granidillo when they meant grenadilla.
> Dalberia melanoxylon
> Tanzania
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-26 17:37
I wouldn't like to get on the wrong side of grenadilla (dalbergia melanoxylon) -eating larvae - if they can chew through grenadilla imagine the damage they can inflict on us!
Maybe they can be trained to chew holes in specific places and depths, diameters etc. in a billet to save the amount of work involved in making a joint.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-05-27 03:20
Alseg wrote:
> Yes, I am fully aware that WE (and woodwind manufacturers)
> refer to clarinet wood as Granadillo,
I have absolutely never, and neither have any of my acquaintences, ever referred to grenadilla as Granadillo. Perhaps you have had different experiences.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-05-27 04:02
You bet!
You will find a variety of spellings.
If you go to hardwood turning stock (lathe) sellers, you will note that they make a distinction between Gren. and Blackwood, whereas clarinetists use the term to designate African Blackwood.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-27 10:40
If you look at Italian manufacturers' sites you'll probably see they tend to use the word 'ebony' (in translation) when they mean 'grenadillA'
I've always called it grenadilla or African blackwood, but never grenadillo as I've never heard of that one.
But only three of the Dalbergia hardwoods are the only ones I know of that are curreently used in the manufacture of woodwinds - grenadilla, kingwood and cocobolo. And they're the only three Dalbergia hardwoods I know of anyway.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-05-27 13:38
Let me clarify this one last time
When clarinetists, oboists, etc refer to the BLACK wood used in the manufacture of their instruments, they are refering to dalberia (dalgeria, dalgeberia) species.\
........but........
When woodworkers--***other than instrument makers-***- refer to grenadilla, they refer to Platymiscium species.
I have ordered wood from many sources. When I receive grenadilla...and some sources spell it differently (please accept this)...from wood merchants, it is NOT the same as true african blackwood.
When I order African Blackwood, I receive a wood that is identical to what most clarinets are made of, and different from what that merchant calls grenadillo/a.
Despite this fact, it is common parlance for musicians to refer to the blackwood as grenadillo/a and that is OK**** just as long as we all know what we are refering to****!!.
nuff said.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-27 14:06
Do you use kingwood as well?
And is there any anti UV treatment that can be used to stop the surface colour fading from the vibrant purple colour when freshly turned to the usual light brown?
Cocobolo is bright orange when machined, but turns a fantastic crimson colour when polished, but it eventually turns black over time - and can eventually look just like blackwood, though the lightness (in weight) gives it away, as well as the smell.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-05-27 15:22
(disclaimer). The answer is part of this thread on wood properties and should not be construed as advocating my techniques.To answer your question I list the following:
I love kingswood. It machines nicely, is resonant, etc. Admitedly the purple grain is striking. BUT it is less stable dimensionally with humidity and temperature, so intonation adjustments have to be spot-on.
I favor a natural wax finish on the outside (sometimes adding a small tint on cocobolo depending on my inclination) and a proprietary sealant finish inside after burnishing...both on cocobolo and kingswood.
Both are beautiful woods, but my primary concern is playability. I do not use a specific UV protectant.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2006-05-27 15:28
This is all great, but what about the red streak question from the initial post? My great 45 year old R13 has recently developed some red streaks. I asked about that on this board and was advised that oiling the outside would tend to make that go away, which it did. I am curious about the nature of the red part.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-27 15:48
It's just the nature of the wood - grenadilla naturally has red streaks in the grain and the reason why they'e more evident now is probably due to the fact the dye used on your R13 (to hide this feature to make the whole clarinet look the same colour) has worn off to expose the natural colour of the wood.
You'll notice that by looking at the end grain of any timber the density changes throughout each individual growth ring - where the density is at it's least the wood is a lighter colour.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-05-27 15:49)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-05-27 16:57
It is normal and of no consequence.
A well-known and highly respected oboe tech near Philadelphia states that it is a sign of fine wood and proper aging.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-27 17:04
[ Poriotns deleted; Chris P. is an employee of Howarth's and did not disclose such until much later. My apologies for missing this and letting Chris P. misuse this BBoard. Mark Charette ]
I must admit that it gets on my wick when people complain when they see an unstained wooden instrument that has some slight colour variation from joint to joint, saying 'that bit's made from a completely different piece of wood from that'!
Well, YES, OF 'COURSE IT ****ing IS! Never in a million years will a clarinet, oboe or any other wooden instrument in three, four, five or more sections be made from the same piece of wood from the same tree.
'Live with it' I'd like to tell them, - nature has no uniformity.
And with synthetics and plastics, I reckon the mixture for the resin isn't exactly the same each time either, though it's close enough to pass.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-05-27 17:36)
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Author: ABerry
Date: 2006-05-28 06:12
Greetings,
I how do you think Purpleheart wood would work for a clarinet or a barrel? I think it would make a stunning looking clarinet especially with gold plated keys... Other good looking woods are Madagascar Rosewood or Madagascar Ebony. What possibilities do these woods have in the woodwind instruments?
Thanks, Allan
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-28 08:28
Not sure about the gold plated keywork though - it's a bit too bling.
I think silver has the best contrast against exotic timbers.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-05-28 08:47
Mark's link shows a photo of a slab of gr... - let's call it mpingo - with a yellow streak of sapwood on the right. I have seen cheaper clarinets with such yellow streaks, and they look pretty bad.
It is interesting that the colour description in this site does not mention RED streaks. I wonder if at least some of the red-streaked timber that has been mentioned in this from may actually not be mpingo.
BTW, if you mention granadilla, sometimes also spelt grenadilla, in horticultural circles, you will be referring to the passionfruit species, "passiflora". And in my experience, most likely to be a variety with fruit the size of a child's head, and most spectacular flowers, "passiflora quadrangularis" - http://seeds.thompson-morgan.com/us/en/product/7265/1
These are vines, and I assure you, they are soft enough for my secateurs to chop very easily through them.
From http://www.answers.com/topic/granadilla :
Granadilla:
Meaning #1: tropical American passionflower yielding the large granadilla fruit
Synonyms: giant granadilla, Passiflora quadrangularis
Meaning #2: considered best for fruit
Synonyms: sweet granadilla, Passiflora ligularis
Meaning #3: Brazilian passionflower cultivated for its deep purple fruit
Synonyms: purple granadillo, Passiflora edulis
Meaning #4: the egg-shaped edible fruit of tropical American vines related to passionflowers
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-05-28 13:47
The passionflower is an entirely different thing. You can buy the seeds, grow the plant, but not make instruments from it.
Purlpleheart is lovely, and makes lousey barrels (IMO)....too pourous internally. I know, I tried it.
Yellowheart likewise, although I have produced several prototype barrels from this wood, and eventually they found their way to european jazz players using wide bore horns, and they like them (or so I have been informed by a circuitous route).
Peruba rosa...too soft, shatters.
There are reasons why mpingo is used, also kingswood and cocobolo.
Bocote and Bubinga do well, as do certain rosewoods and mahogonies (not all).
Yellow streaks (even white ones) are found in Grenadillo
Red streaks are found in African Blackwood.
Neither streak means anything acoustically.
Ebony has a variety of subspieces and likewise can have streaks. True ebony is hard to mill.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-05-28 15:52
I agree completely with Chris P about staining clarinets.It makes clarinet look darker but also makes it look cheap.Specially if you look at the surface at a glancing angle,it reflects purplish metallic sheen. It looks worse than plastic (to me).
Buffte R13 is not an intermediate level insrument, it is one of the best
clarinets available now.Even though it is not the most expensive model,it isn't cheap either.
Buffet crampon should use decent wood without staining or shouldn't
use these wood at all for R13 if they have to hide wide lighter streaks by
staining.
I think customers understand that pitch black grenadilla is scrace and
difficult to get these days and don't expect clarinets made by perfect wood.
Most players ,I assume,prefer natural looking finish with a natural marking
than stained finish with unnatural oil color.
Fortunately,it is very easy to remove the stain on R13 if you want to.
All you have to do is use alcohol and wipe it off gently,then all the glory
of the natural wood will come back.
It may look slightly lighter than stained color,but definitely it will look much
more natural and annual rings and wood grain will show beautiful depth
and you can see the natural reflection of the lights below the surface not
the artificial ugly cheap oil dye.
Koo young Chung
Violin maker
Post Edited (2006-05-28 16:02)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-05-28 16:01
Koo Young Chung wrote:
> It makes clarinet look darker but also makes it look cheap.
...
> Buffet crampon should use decent wood without staining or
> shouldn't use these wood at all for R13 if they have to hide wide lighter
> streaks by staining.
If you want to spend the money you buy a Prestige or Festival with unstained wood. If you want to pay less you get a stained R13. It's up to the customer to pay more or less for what they want - at least you have a choice!
If providing stained wood makes a clarinet affordable (and clarinets are incredibly cheap compared to almost every other instrument), why would anyone complain? Otherwise you may just as well delete the R13 from the current lineup.
Trust me, if it were in Buffet-Crapon's best interest to make only unstained instruments for a premium price, they would. They, like every other business, do an analysis to figure out what they can charge and what kind of product mix make the best economic sense, and ... they get it wrong occasionally. Get it wrong too often or in too great a scale and you go out of business.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-05-28 16:11
To M.C.
All I'm saying is that use the same kind of wood Buffet using now for R13.
Just don't stain them.
Is it too difficult?
They can save a few bucks and few minutes of manufacturing time.
At least they should offer choices for customers btw unstained or stained model.
I know they offer Presige etc.
I don't want to go there now...
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-05-28 16:17
I have seen some GREAT wood on NEW R13s, as well as mediocre. (Bright lights and magnifying loupes).
I have also noted lathe tool gouging chips on tenons of R13s (esp. middle joint) that did not effect an otherwise nicely playing instrument.
There is much said about closeness of grain and smoothness of burnishing.
Some favor a more open grain internally (Hans Moennig was one). Some players were know to tap billets with a pencil to hear the ringing sound they wanted (Yona Ettlinger).
I do not think that you can draw a conclusion about playability based ONLY on the wood's appearance or grain. The ONLY way you can predict is to play it.
Handsome is as handsome does.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-05-28 16:23
Koo Young Chung wrote:
> Just don't stain them.
There is a significant portion of customers who WANT stained wood.
> I know they offer Presige etc.
>
> I don't want to go there now...
Go there. That's what you buy if you want unstained wood. Giving another option on the R13 means that they have to select particular wood/instruments for appearance. Which brings you back to the Prestige!
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-05-28 16:43
or the Vintage (new) model.
The wood on my Vintage A-clar is unstained.
This is another option.
Or Leblanc or Selmer
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: ElBlufer
Date: 2006-05-28 18:13
well, while we were mentioning how darkly stained R13's are, I thought I should mention this:
Not all R13's are stained as dark as others. For instence, I was lucky enough to recieve an R13 that is very close to unstained. When I first looked at other R13's and compared it to mine, I was very surprised to see that other R13's almost looked to be the same color as their plastic model (B12).
I should also mention that my clarinet did come with one or two red streaks in it.
My Setup:
R13 Clarinet (Ridenour Lyrique as my backup/marching instrument)
Walter Grabner K11 mouthpiece
Rico Reserve 3.5's
Bonade ligature
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-07-12 23:51
Attachment: LeblancBellsBig.jpg (100k)
I know this is sort of an old topic, but I just browsed across it, and thought I'd add my two cents...
I can't imagine why anyone would ever be WORRIED about the grain showing up in their wood! I'd be elated, personally, if my hideously dyed clarinet actually started to look like real wood one day...
Fortunately, all my clarinets DO look like real wood. My grenadilla horns all have gorgeous brown/red striations in the wood, and it's just stunning, esp. in sunlight or a good overhead light.
I've attached a photo that I think shows this beautifully...(and regarding the argument that you have to pay a lot to get a great unstained clarinet, the Rapsodie on the right of the pic is the cheapest clarinet I've ever owned, and I daresay one of the top five best-playing. Maybe you just shouldn't buy a Buffet. :-D *i jest...sort of*)
The Opus, btw, is rosewood (for those for whom that might not have been glaringly obvious...).
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2006-07-13 17:51
Isn't it that obvious that the stained sood will appear darker than the unstained? That's why it is stained, is to give it a more uniform black appearance. I personally love the appearance of unstained wood though (i have a Festival) and my Eb R13 has sort of 'faded' making sections appear much redder, it's so beautiful.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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