 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CPW
Date: 2006-05-22 16:30
No limmericks, edited or otherwise.
I just wondered why the Vintage model Buffet seems to get less attention than the Prestige or other models.
I tried one in key of A after searching for a good A-clar and trying other models (incl non buffet).
The wood is unstained (as is the Prestige). Is it hearwood or like the R13 wood? I would apprciate help on this question.
The bell is longer than an R13.
The barrel is specific to the instrument, 65mm. A second conical one is supplied and to me it seemed unecessary.
The register key is definitely different and looks more like a Galper register key. (Probably the design is not copyrighted in France, but I wonder if they used that the design.). The tube does not protrude into the bore as deeply. The G#/C# side key pad sits on an elevated wood tonehole.
The keywork is smooth and the pads sealed nicely (pro set up, see below.) The shape of the bore seems to be an tapered moreso than the R13 and narrow.
I do not know how the Bb instrument behaves. Remember that I am discussing an A-clar here, I did not trial a Bb.
The throat tones were perfect, and no special fingering was needed. The registers were smooth and no notes stuck out. The response was easy and was not stuffy (I recall stuffiness being an issue with another poster on this list) but it was not without some resistance. The sound is sweet but more understated than the Bb R13.
My overall impression was that this is a very refined instrument with a lot to offer. It is more costly than a standard R13 but not stratospheric like a Tosca. (I have not trialed a Tosca so I can not compare them). Certainly anyone considering an upgrade to a new R13 or other pro instrument should consider trying a Vintage model.
Walt Grabner did the set-up and provided the instrument much on the order of what has been discussed before. Service and price and knowledge on target. Kudos to him.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2006-05-22 18:20
CPW -
I'll do the best that I can since Guy Chadash and I worked together on the prototype Bb and finalized it before it was sent to be copied in France...not copied exactly mind you, but as close as possible with the French doing things their way. I do know something about the A too since I've talked about it's development while Guy oversaw things on visits to France. (The A came out after the Bb.)
The wood origin you would have to email Francois Kloc about. Of course the wood is aged approx. 5 years now as opposed to many times that amount back in the late 50's and 60's - the era that this instrument harkens back to.
The barrel on both the Bb and A have two included in the case - the standard cylindrical bore and their version of the Chadash bore which is an inverted taper styled design. They tried for a long time to imitate Guy's barrels but no matter, they do not play anywhere similarly.
This is due to something that I talked about in a previous thread, namely the "spirit" of the reamer. No two reamers are alike no matter how closely they are copied or reverse engineered. That is why Guy keeps control of the barrels by having France send him semi-finished barrels with a smaller "pilot" hole already drilled into them. He then reams each barrel with his own reamers and sends them back to Buffet France to be distributed worldwide.
The register vent was Guy's idea after contemplating older wraparound register vents the protruded in much the same way. Given the long history of Buffet A clarinets in particular having problems with sub tones or ghost tones, he thought that extending the register tube out from the body of the clarinet and therefore shortening the protrusion of the tube into the bore of the clarinet, the overall volume of the inside of the bore would be more, an ideal solution to the problem. The register key has a "crook" in it to accommodate the protruding register vent.
The C#-G# tube has been extended outward to clear up the slight stuffiness that came from too short of a tone hole. Now that note resonates in an equivalent fashion to the notes around it even though it vents from the side of the instrument.
The bore is the same size and dimensions of the approx. 150,000 series Buffets that America went nuts about back in the 60's and led the R13 to dominate the US market to this very day. It has been slightly modified over the years and the result is the modern R-13. Numbers for the cylinder measurements I don't have. Perhaps Francois would have that too.
Finally, the bell was lengthened by 1mm when I discovered that the long B was a bit sharp on the Bb. After sending me a bell 1mm longer, the problem was fixed and off it went to the factory for the technicians at Buffet France to contemplate how they were going to make it their own.
Gregory Smith
Post Edited (2006-05-22 18:24)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-05-22 19:02
*****The bore is the same size and dimensions of the approx. 150,000 series Buffets that America went nuts about back in the 60's and led the R13 to dominate the US market to this very day.*****
There was no R-13 with the serial number "approx. 150,000" in the 60's.
IMO Buffet R-13 Vintage does not resemble Vintage R-13 design at all. It's modernized R-13 design and it shouldn't be called "reissue or reintroduction of the vintage R-13".
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-05-22 19:11
I auditioned and eventually purchased an A-clarinet Vintage model from Walt Grabner, after having a nice experience with an R13 Bb.
The character of the Vintage model struck me as being its own thing, and agree it should be of prime consideration when looking for a nice horn.
The regular barrel worked better for me than did the added conical one.
The pouchette case included with it is covered with leather instead of vinyl.
A nice touch, but gig bag cover still needed to store "stuff."
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2006-05-22 19:14)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2006-05-22 20:40
Vytas said:
"There was no R-13 with the serial number "approx. 150,000" in the 60's.
IMO Buffet R-13 Vintage does not resemble Vintage R-13 design at all. It's modernized R-13 design and it shouldn't be called "reissue or reintroduction of the vintage R-13"."
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Perhaps you can correct the proper serial number range for the early 60's. Buffet took their serial number data base down from their website and I was going from memory. Thanks.
I do understand the point about it being a modernized version of the original though. That's why I tried to nuance my phrasing about the propensity for the French company to "make it their own" version of the prototype we worked on.
*ON EDIT*: For this reason, Guy and I have taken no responsibility, nor could we, for the final product.
In my original post, diplomacy seemed to be in order.
Not to have given the wrong impression in my first post, but the inverted taper "real" Buffet/Chadash barrels do indeed go very nicely, as they were designed to do, with this clarinet as well as all other Buffet soprano clarinets. (Discliamer: I sell Buffet/Chadash personally hand-selected barrels that are matched with my mouthpieces and am a Buffet performing artist/adviser.)
Gregory Smith
Post Edited (2006-05-22 21:33)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-05-23 02:48
Mr. Gregory Smith,
Thank you for valuable information.
I think Buffet would do better by admitting the fact that you and Mr. Guy Chadash worked on the prototype instead of trying to pass it as the reincarnation of the vintage R-13.
I understand Buffet had very little success in the US with their professional models other than the R-13. Sticking the R-13 label to the product(s) that has/have very little resemblance to the original is very smart marketing idea but it is far away from the truth.
62458 - 65956 - 1960
65957 - 68717 - 1961
69718 - 75319 - 1962
75320 - 78093 – 1963
____________________________________________________________
Francois Kloc wrote:
*****The differences between the Vintage and the regular R13 are: The Vintage is made out of Prestige wood, which is denser than the wood we are using on the Regular R13 (it doesn't mean it is better quality). I say that because many people think that we don't use poor wood to make instruments it will not work.
The Bore of the Vinatge is .02 mm smaller than the R13 on the cylinder and the entry cone is smaller too. The 12 register tube is 1 mm up and the bell is 1mm longer. It comes with adjustable thumb rest and two barrels 1 polycylindrical and 1 conical to give you two different ways to play the instrument. The conical one is engraved V2. The Vintage came out after Rene Lesieux the Rechearch and Development Manager at Buffet did a tour and met a lot of player in North America. Many of them asked him if it was possible for Buffet to make an instrument more like the first 1950' R13 and it is what Rene worked on. Francois Kloc*****
____________________________________________________________
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2006-05-23 03:24)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-05-23 03:11
I guess that answers the original question about the wood.
With such dimensional changes, it is a wonder they called it Vintage instead of some other designation.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2006-05-23 04:03
Vytas said:
"Mr. Gregory Smith,
Thank you for valuable information.
I think Buffet would do better by admitting the fact that you and Mr. Guy Chadash worked on the prototype instead of trying to pass it as the reincarnation of the vintage R-13."
==================================================
I originally said:
"...it was sent to be copied in France...not copied exactly mind you, but as close as possible with the French doing things their way."
and...
"I do understand the point about it being a modernized version of the original though. That's why I tried to nuance my phrasing about the propensity for the French company to "make it their own" version of the prototype we worked on. For this reason, Guy and I have taken no responsibility, nor could we, for the final product."
=================================================
Vytas,
The only problem I have is that the two facts you tie together ("...admitting the fact that you and Mr. Guy Chadash worked on the prototype instead of trying to pass it as the reincarnation of the vintage R-13.") really have nothing to do with one another. I tried to make clear in my posts that the Bb prototype was replicated the way that Buffet chose to do it. We had no control over their design or marketing decisions. I'm not positive but they have a whole stable of testers in France and I suspect that perhaps they may have influenced the final design.
The marketing decisions regarding the Vintage were completely their decision and their "admissions" to "pass it" as you put it, since you imply disappointment, should perhaps be a subject brought up with the company. I am not the kind of representative to do that for Buffet so perhaps an email to Mr. Kloc would be appropriate if you require more answers.
BTW, I was not the sole adviser on this prototype instrument. It was sent to me in a non-finalized version and Guy and I worked to finalize it before it was shipped to Buffet France.
Also, it's obvious to me now that I had meant to say serial #'s approx. 50,000 (and higher) but inadvertantly said approx. 150,000.
Best wishes,
Gregory Smith
Post Edited (2006-05-23 04:45)
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-05-23 12:07
To Mr.Smith
I enjoy reading about mp,barrel and clarinet in general from your posts.
I understand that no two reamers are exactly alike.
I know from my experience as a violin maker.
Every peg reamer seems to have a different taper.
Then I'm wondering what happens when Mr.Chadash's original reamer
wears out eventually after thousands of barrels.
Can he reproduce exactly same taper reamer?
Even if he resharpens his reamer,doesn't that change the taper ever so
slightly so that it won't be called "Chadash" even though made by
Chadash himself?
Or when his current reamer gets dull,Chadash barrel as we know will be gone forever?
Koo young Chung
Violin maker in Chicago
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-05-23 14:02
(Disclaimer - I have no relationships with Buffet, Gregory Smith, or Guy Chadash other than friendships)
I will tie two disparate analogies together in hopes of not ruining either. Recreations are never exactly like the original but hopefully with the artist's touch will embody most of the attributes sought in the new creation which mimic the "classic". I own and play a Buffet Vintage new clarinet and also have among my herd some originals. I chose the Buffet Vintage over the regular R-13 because I liked the sound, keywork and wood quality. With any model of clarinet there is a spectrum ranging from poor to excellent so talking about one example in one player's hands only should be taken as a sample of one out of a universe of clarinets and a particular players technique and body architecture producing sound.
Gregory Smith and Guy Chadash are artisans in their craft and use tools only to produce their art. The tool is not the art, but no doubt they have favorite tools. They, I am sure, could use various tools and produce the same results by applying their experience and recognition of what the finished form and sound should be. As with mouthpieces, the finished form of a clarinet is a combination of the measurements and material of the blank but also the final contribution of the artist to blend and modify these raw materials into a product with particular playing characteristics. The manufacturer then takes the "creation" - prototype if you will, and tries to faithfully reproduce it on a volume basis - not all will end up being faithful reproductions however. No one can recreate the exact materials used, the tooling machinery used to make the blank for a "classic" clarinet or mouthpiece, or the subsequent aging effects on the materials. A recreation may have similar physical characteristics and dimensions but the recreation of the sound produced is an intangible interpretation rendered by the clarinet or mouthpiece artisan. To be sure, the artisan's interpretation may be their own and the consumer is the judge of the artist’s interpretation, but we should consider that the materials and form are only the raw material to be molded by the artist. Materials and form do put certain constraints on the ability of the artist to make the product but there are obviously subtle nuances created by the artisan which affect the sound produced by the end creation.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: CPW
Date: 2006-05-23 14:47
Thanks for the input.
Now I know about the wood.
Against the windmills of my mind
The jousting pole splinters
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2006-05-23 15:17
Koo Young Chung -
These are all questions that one would have to ask Guy himself. And even then I'm not sure that the kind of information for which you ask isn't proprietary.
I say this because there are all styles of reamers made from different materials, with or without a myriad of protective coatings. Some have to be sent out to the original maker to sharpen with the original machines, some styles can be sharpened by the artisan themselves in shop. (And no. Sharpening them properly does not change the dimensions and most importantly, the "spirit" of that individual reamer - it's the same reamer.)
Without getting too much into reamers 101, suffice it to say that at some time in the distant, distant, future, a reamer may have been sharpened so many times that there is nothing left of the blank from which to sharpen or take away material, but this would be highly unusual in cases that produce smaller to mid-volume amounts of products.
I am not aware of such cases but there may be some in the cases of highly industrialized, huge volume production lines in the auto industry, etc.
Gregory Smith
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Author: chito
Date: 2006-05-25 03:26
I m wondering why the vintage model both A clar. and Bb clar in the US have no auxillary( Eb key) When I visited buffet company in japan i saw all of the vintage model have a auxillary key.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2006-05-25 03:34
A good example of Buffet once again doing it their own way...in Japan. A completely separate and unique market. That's why there is Buffet France (for Europe and most of Asia), Buffet North America, and Buffet Japan (for the huge market there and their specific and special needs).
Gregory Smith
Post Edited (2006-05-25 04:10)
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