 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: adonahou
Date: 2006-05-03 21:02
Hello,
My daughter is in 10th grade, and plays clarinet in both the concert and marching bands. Her instructor has told her that it is time to upgrade her concert instrument, and I was hoping for a recommendation, since I know next to nothing about what I should be considering. She is a very good student, usually first chair, so I don't want her instrument to hold her back. At the same time, she will probably not play too much after high school, so I don't want to invest thousands of dollars in an instrument she may only play for another two years.
I would appreciate any words of wisdom!
Thanks!
A. Donahou
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2006-05-03 21:57
I would look heavily into used instruments. Possibly the classifieds on this very bulletin board (I've bought a few things from there, all good quality products).
The reason I state this is because you will more than likely NOT spend thousands (plural) of dollars. You can get a very good professional instrument for around a thousand dollars. Maybe a little more, maybe a little less, and, should she not touch it after high school, you can sell it for about the same price (if she takes good care of it throughout her years playing). Used instruments to me seem to be a win/win scenario, with the only exception being that you sometimes have to wait to find a really good one up for sale.
If you're "iffy" on buying something through online classifieds, you can use various forms of payment that offer insurance (such as paypal, escrow, etc.) although they will charge a fee for the insurance that you receive.
Me personally, I try to stick with items for sale from people who have good reputations on this bulletin board, or who own good reputable stores.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2006-05-03 22:18
I would suggest an E11... but because of the marching band thing that may not work. It would be a good idea on buffets part to produce an intermediate greenline clarinet in my opinion for times such as this.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-05-03 22:31
Sean.Perrin wrote:
> I would suggest an E11... but because of the marching band
> thing that may not work. It would be a good idea on buffets
> part to produce an intermediate greenline clarinet in my
> opinion for times such as this.
A Greenline intermediate clarinet is not necessary because, except for the choice of material (grenadilla vs ABS resin), the E11 and B12 are very similar...GBK
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2006-05-03 23:43
This question comes up a lot. Do a search through the archives. There is a lot of good information in old postings.
I also would suggest a used instrument. You can pick up an older professional instrument for under $1000, and some very good intermediates for half of that. The main difference between an intermediate and profesional horn will be how in tune it is, note to note, and how evenly it plays, especially across the register break. A well set up intermediate can play as well as a run of the mill professional clarinet.
Most of the technician/rebuilders that lurk around here will allow you to try an instrument. If your daughter or her teacher decide it's not for her, you can return it and either try another or pay a nominal restocking fee.
Since you are upgrading instruments, have her teacher check her mouthpiece as well. This can have as much effect as the instrument itself.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-05-03 23:50
The interesting question is: upgrade from what exactly? Bundy? Vito?
--
Ben
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-05-04 00:22
I agree with Ben, you didn't say what she's using right now. But, if you can find a good used Buffet R-13, she would be well served by it. You could also easily sell it if she decides she doesn't want to continue playing after high school.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2006-05-04 00:49
E11's are not good choices for advancing students - these are intermediate level horns; and they are pitched too sharp (442).
ask her teacher - go with her teacher's recommendation.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2006-05-04 01:26
Beg to differ. Paul; I've played E11's that I would not hesitate to take on a professional gig. The "too sharp" is easily fixed with a barrel longer than the one supplied by Buffet. Even given investing an extra hundred bucks on a c.66mm barrel, the E11 is a terrific bargain!
I have had very good students play E11's all the way through high school and college -- there are worse choices among so-called "professional" instruments.
Larry
National Symphony Orchestra (retired)
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2006-05-04 02:37
I once read that the keys are closer together on the E11 to make it easier for students small hands to play. If this is true there would be a considerable adjustment when upgrading to a professional instrument.
jmsa
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2006-05-04 02:57
As far as marching band, she should be able to use her current horn for that even if she upgrades to a "better" wooden horn for concert use.
In terms of recommendations, I'd say sample the E11's. If you have access to some of the newer intermediate models from Leblanc/Selmer (i.e. the "Leblanc Soloist" which is now owned by Selmer) I'd highly recommend those. Depending on the source they run around $1500 new but IMHO they definitely are at least as good as most E11's and probably better than many...
Katrina
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2006-05-04 17:15
jmsa wrote:
"I once read that the keys are closer together on the E11 to make it easier for students small hands to play. If this is true there would be a considerable adjustment when upgrading to a professional instrument".
I don't know where you read this, but I haven't noticed any radical difference in key size between the E11 and the R13. Early production E11's had a simple push- cork linkage for the LH B and C# levers; later instruments have a pin and hole linkage, just like the big kids!
I would suggest checking with your tech before you commit to buy any Leblanc instrument; I'm told that since the Selmer takeover, customer service for spare parts etc. has completely disappeared -- used to be the best!
Larry
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2006-05-04 23:56
Larry,
If you look closely, side by side, at the lower joints of an E11 and an R13, you'll see that the keys in the right-hand pinky cluster are indeed smaller on the E11 than on the R13. This fact has been pointed out on this board before and is probably what jmsa remembers reading. Of course, his retelling of the "facts" illustrates how rumors and misinformation can grow and suggests that it's a good idea to check one's facts before publishing. In my experience, unless they have very large hands, there's a good chance that many clarinetists, even good ones, won't notice the difference if they aren't told in advance. (I offer you as evidence.)
Buffet classifies the E11 as a (wooden) student model, not an intermediate. As GBK has already pointed out, it is essentially a wooden B12 (perhaps with metal rather than plastic rings?). That said, I agree with you that it is a good value and likely more than enough clarinet for a casual/amateur clarinetist to use through college and later in a community band. I think it is also a good choice for a doubler. I can't imagine why someone would want to spend $1500 on a new intermediate clarinet that was only "at least as good." For me, it would have to be better -- alot better. But then, I would never recommend an intermediate clarinet.
As far as used clarinets are concerned, personally, I would consider a Buffet R13 in good playing condition, in the 5-10 year age range a better buy at $1100- $1200, than a new E11 for $600-$700. If your daughter only plays for 2 more years, and takes good care of her instrument, the R13 should sell for pretty close to what you paid for it. The E11 would likely bring around $350. Used instruments pose alot more risk, however, if you don't have someone who really knows clarinets helping with the selection (and I'm not talking about the person who is selling you the instrument).
adonahou, I'm a little intrigued at your comment that your 10th grade daughter probably won't play much after high school. She apparently enjoys playing and is becoming fairly competent or I doubt you would be looking for a better clarinet. Why would she just quit after high school graduation? Does she plan to go to college? If so, I think she will find that there are many opportunities for her to play recreationally, even if she isn't a music major. Many schools give (small) scholarships for playing in their marching bands or pep bands and the students get to take some fun trips. Also, after (or, for that matter, during) college, the plethora of community music ensembles create many additional opportunities to continue. For someone who enjoys playing recreationally, musical life need not end at 18! Or is band simply more of a social activity at this point?
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2006-05-04 23:58)
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2006-05-05 04:14
There is another advantage of playing in college. The engineering program had a bunch or humanities requisites, some of which I covered by playing in the band and orchestra. My teachers were kind enough to give me good grades even though I sat well back in the sections. The clarinet helped my GPA when statistics and complex analysis reared their ugly heads.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-05-05 20:24
Although I'm not aware of any studies on the subject, my anecdotal information on "those who used to play but have since stopped" includes dozens of folks met in casual situations.
When the topic of music comes up and a friend also present mentions that I play and have a group, invariably there will be one or two others in the crowd assembled who state "Yeah, I used to play (insert name of instrument of torture here) back in high school." When asked if they still play, the vast majority (certainly approaching 95% of the dozens of such people encountered over the past thirty years) respond that they don't.
In my high school graduating class from the early 1960's, the "band group" is still identified as a subset of the total class. From those I know who have been to reunions (I've never even received an invite...h'mmm), I have learned that only the few who went on into teaching music still play. The rest parked it after college and haven't taken it out of the garage since.
Still, you have to appreciate those who give up the craft. If it weren't for them, there wouldn't be all of those (usually well-preserved) R13 and Mark VI horns that end up on the after-market.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2006-05-05 22:59
I'm surprised to hear such negative remarks about the E11. After moving on to an R13, I did play a couple B12s, and I thought they sounded terribly stuffy by comparison (to the E11). You can also put me into the group of people who didn't notice any key-spacing difference between the E11 and the R13.
I don't know what the E11s are going for today, but as an intermediate horn, they're a great value. If you might end up buying another instrument in a couple years, the money spent on an E11 is almost a wash. Especially if you can't sell a used R13 for close to what you bought it for. Since upgrading years ago to an R13, I have used my E11 in a number of professional situations and I don't think anyone knew the difference.
Post Edited (2006-05-05 23:01)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2006-05-05 23:32
The big thing I see is that for a few hundred dollars more (and that's only in SOME cases) than the E11, you can get a professional quality horn (albeit used). And with the availability of used professional horns you now have access to VIA the internet, you're pretty much guarenteed to find one that will sound much better than a new E11.
Alexi <- who just a week or two ago sold a used professional clarinet for 500. Fair price considering the shape it was in, but it completely outplayed that person's R13 that they used prior to buying my old clarinet. It just wasn't so pretty to look at.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: MSK
Date: 2006-05-06 00:43
Make sure you keep the beginner clarinet, rather than trading it in like you would a car. A good wood clarinet should never be used for marching band. It could be badly damaged. If properly cared for, you can sell it if she quits and get most of your money back.
Incidently, if she is good enough to be first chair, it would be a shame to quit at high school graduation. I was first chair in high school, but not quite good enough to make it professionally or to consider being a music major. I continued all through college and 18 years later I still play in a community symphony orchestra. I've even had a few (low) paid gigs. In addition, as mentioned above, music can meet some humanities course requirements and pump up the GPA in college.
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Author: chazman
Date: 2006-05-07 13:18
You might consider a Leblanc Symphony or L200 if you can find one at a reasonable price. These instruments will serve her well in: H.S., college and beyond.
Post Edited (2006-05-07 13:20)
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Author: adonahou
Date: 2006-05-09 19:23
Thanks so much to everyone for the advice.
As for what she is playing now, I believe one is a Vito Reso Tone. She has two, and the other is at school, so I'm not sure exactly what that one is. Sad!
I do hope she will keep playing after high school. Yes, the social aspect is a part of it, but she does enjoy it. I only meant that she isn't headed towards a music major or career. If she can find time in college to keep playing, she definitely will, and sees herself playing with a community group as an adult.
I still don't know exactly what we'll end up with. The two local current contenders are a 5 year old Selmer Signet 100, a new Normandy 4 (purchased but never opened), or my sister's refurbished E11 (she wouldn't get to keep this, as my nephew will start playing in a few years). I would rather buy something she can test, though my guess is anything will seem better than her current horn.
Thanks again for all the advice! I'm very impressed!
A. Donahou
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-05-09 19:42
The Vito is one of the better student instruments. It's a good one to keep for marching band, where as others have said, she won't want to risk a good wooden clarinet. As an amateur on a budget, I strongly agree with people who recommend a used instrument. Used instruments can give fine value for the dollar. Just think of all those kids whose parents did buy them brand-new, expensive, pro-quality instruments--and then the kids upped and quit after high school, leaving their clarinets barely broken in and just waiting for someone to come along and appreciate them....
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-05-09 20:00
...my guess is anything will seem better than her current horn.
Now that sounds as if the Vito were a piece of rubbish. My own vito (a mélange du jour with two different joints) sounds really nice. I'd keep it for outdoors, vacation or as a reserve instrument.
Of course, the incentive of a new instrument can't be underestimated. And after all these years your daughter does deserve some reward.
(FWIW I have an Amati which is very well in tune with my teacher's RC. Their Full-Boehm 615 costs about as much as an E11...)
--
Ben
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2006-05-09 21:57
Hello adonahou; Of all the determining factors, what else? All the brands that make good clarinets make some that are higher pitched than other brands. Your daughter can measure the instruments from the top of the barrel to determine how high the mechanism is on the body. What strength of reed does she use? My next question, an eight letter word with only one vowel? A Selmer (Paris) is the highest pitched, and they have several models in different price ranges. Sincerely, Ken
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