 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jforsyth
Date: 2006-05-01 05:42
Hello all!
as a recent addition to the world of clarinet, i've many a qustion, and will try to limit myself...
1. I've recently purchased (stupidly(?)) an old Clarinet from the internet, and after having a friend look at it (she plays, and has done for some time), she advised it should go in for repair.
Having said that, she also said they'd probably try to charge me as much as possible as i'm clueless at this stage.
The problem encountered: notes below the first joint (look at my ignornace) all squeak out of control.
I did note that when my pal had a turn, one of the pads fell straight off.
Would it be advisable for me, or someone else, to try re-pad the thing using self-adhesive pads?
2. The clarinet is old, or seems to be.
Black wood, bar mouth piece/bell.
The bell reads: LaFleur, imported by xxxx co. london. made in czechoslovakia, but is not wooden, and is slightly discoloured, is this a sign that it is probably not correct for rest of intrument?
Also, i've had next to no luck in finding about this brand.
I guess for the meantime thats all i can think of, i've been obsessively researching all things possible to help in my search for a jam with a clarinet (!) and have a good embouchure technique (apparently) already going for me, i just want to play!
thanks for any help anyone might be able to lend!
p.s in in New Zealand.
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-05-01 06:22
I've never been a fan of self-adhesive pads. The main problem is that it is pretty difficult to get them to seal. Floating pads is not rocket science but it is an art, and the advantages of having a pro do the job far outway the cost.
It sounds like there's a leak somewhere, either through one of the pads (good) or through the tenon (not so good. It sounds as if the instrument could use a good overhaul, but since I'm not familiar with the instrument I really don't know know if the investment would pay off. You might be better off by trying to find a good student instrument, of which there are many, to start off on. Beginning the vlarinet is never a great time to overcome equipment adversity.
-Randy
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-01 13:16
The clarinet you have was made by Amati before the fall of the Iron Curtain and imported by B&H (Boosey&Hawkes, not Benson&Hedges!), the bell was the only part that has the name engraved on these clarinets and was usually made of ebonite (hence the greenish colour) - the rest of the clarinet is wood.
In the UK these were also engraved CORTON as well as Lafleur, though there are loads of other names depending on who imported them - some even had wooden bells.
B&H continued to import these as student level clarinets under the B&H 400 series (which covered pretty much all instruments from the Amati factory, that's brass, woodwind and strings aimed at the beginner/student market), though now Amati have expanded their lineup since independence and produce a wider variety of instruments, and better quality control, not to mention they produce a fantastic contrabassoon at the price.
The Forte clarinet is made by Amati but built to Omar Henderson's spec, and different to the clarinets you'd be getting from the Amati distributors (eg. Rosetti).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-05-01 13:17)
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Author: jforsyth
Date: 2006-05-01 23:04
WOW what a great response!
the history of this is most impressive! and even the greenish colour you describe is how i found the bell to be!
as for the re-padding, dare i say that the price involved for professional work is too much for me, but i think i'll give it a go with some pads first myself (i like to tinker!), then it that goes completely hay-wire, save some dough and pay a pro.
In people's opinion, would it be worth having this professionaly repaired if i fail completely?
Or should i find another cheap one that may need less servicing?
Thanks for the help people!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-01 23:19
I think this will be a good enough clarinet not only to get working for yourself, but to practice basic repairing skills on (recorking tenons, fitting pads, etc.), but it's not really worth shelling out the cost of a full overhaul done by a professional.
Practice taking it all apart and putting it back together again so you become familliar with how it all comes apart and goes together.
Though they can play remarkably well once well set up - and with enough practice and guidance you should be able to carry out your own repairs.
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Author: jforsyth
Date: 2006-05-02 03:32
Yes Chris thanks for this, I was excited to do it, but now I most definately will.
WISH ME LUCK!
Thanks again.
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Author: Bartleby
Date: 2006-05-02 08:44
A B&H LeFleur was the very first clarinet I had. Like yours it was not in brilliant condition when my girlfriend purchased it for me, even though it came from a reputable retailer (Mike's Music, Bognor Regis.) However, it also came with a 12 month's warranty which I took good advantage of and I ended up with a fairly decent insrument with an excellent tone. I really liked mine until it became moribund and was part exchanged. In some ways I wish I still had it. All the best.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-02 12:37
HAHAHA! I used to work at Mike's!
I popped in the other day to use his dent tools on a tenor sax, I see nothing has changed - it's still the same old chaotic shop it was when I left there for bigger and better things.
Though I still live in Bognor.
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Author: jforsyth
Date: 2006-05-02 22:39
GREAT!
...to hear (that you had the same etc) that my LeFleur has a chance to be great(ish with self repairs!)...
The tone i could get out of the top 5ish holes/buttons sounded warm, rich and grand, so yes!
definately looking foward to trying to get the thing up and running and setting my embouchure for good.
(just picking up instrument now, and trying to get good techniques in place before i learn terribly wrong!)
-starts to shake slightly with excitedness-
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-05-02 22:51
-starts to shake slightly with excitedness-
That's no good, you'll need a steady hand for these repairs. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: jforsyth
Date: 2006-05-02 22:54
HA!
yes, and on that note, any tips for when i start?
Pull it right to pieces etc first...?
got next-to-no-idea really.
will have to wait a week or two before i order pads, but will research my little brain out till then to get a better idea!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-02 23:07
Do you know any local technicians or repairers that could give you guidance?
The best way is to be shown by someone in the know rather than relying solely on books.
But don't be afraid to ask.
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Author: b.roke
Date: 2006-05-02 23:10
some pad suppliers also include instructions - check out music medic which is a sponsor here.
check out your library to see if there are any books that might also help.
have a big clear space - and try to put things back exactly where they came from. write yourself lots of notes.
get some of the doctors bore oil and saturate the wood inside and out.
i'm in chch - email me from my profile and i can tell you of some of the mistakes i made and things i 'discovered'!
cheers
"steadfastness stands higher than any success"
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-05-02 23:35
First of all, you need a screwdriver - it must fit exactly (a 2mm "watchmaker" type driver should be okay). Too small and it will spread the groove which in turn will jam the screw, especially if it's a rod as in the LH spatula keys assembly. Apply only gentle pressure as not to slip off the groove.
If you suspect a screw sits too tight, try to oil it a bit (I use MOS2 antifriction oil) - be careful to wipe off excess. Disassembly of an old clarinet is more difficult than reassembling the cleaned and lubricated parts. Be patient while doing this. First I simply try to loosen all the screws - just to be safe from surprises.
Learn how the mechanism works - which key closes what holes, what holes are closed simultaneously etc. If unsure, take close-up photos of the interesting bits while the horn is still assembled.
The rest isn't all that hard - remove the key, remove the pad, clean the cups, glue the new pads in (don't overdo it with shellac or glue, it just needs to keep the pad in place), reassemble, test each one and readjust if necessary. Do not use super glue; if no shellac is available, try slow-setting PVA (which can easy be cleaned with a damp rag).
For the register key I use cork - rummage in your drawer for a fine piece of bottle cork; there usually is a perfectly blemish-free bit in every cork (The art consists in finding and extracting it). The register key is easy as it is spring-closed and easily accessible, the ideal candidate for first steps.
Disclaimer: I don't know if this method is "educator approved". It has worked for my five repad jobs in the past, though.
--
Ben
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Author: jforsyth
Date: 2006-05-03 00:19
Wow thats a pretty decent rundown!
i'll try and get some of the Valentino greenback self adhesive pads (hear they're ok from the threads i've read here) and go with them...
I at this point would like to think i'll have success...
only time will tell!
thanks!
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Author: Bartleby
Date: 2006-05-03 09:04
Chris P, I think I remember you from Mike's. It was you who had to do most of the repairs to the LeFleur I mentioned yesterday. I believe you came to work for the "Posh People" here in Worthing.
Interestingly, about six weeks ago I bought what I thought was an old plastic CSO from a charity shop in Rowlands Road. It was my intention to try to teach myself a few repair skills with it. However, when I got it home, lifted all the keys and wiped off what appeared to be a load of grease I discovered that it was made of quite nice unstained grenadilla and had the Howarth logo on barrel, top joint and bell ...and no cracks! I took it over to Mike's for a repad and a bit of a swage etc, and now have a quite nice insrument. Trouble is I don't know what model it is. I popped into Howarth's with the serial number, but all they could say was that it was about 15 years old. Do you think it could be a Marigaux which you mentioned in a previous posting? Also, are you still doing repairs?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-03 11:59
I saw that very clarinet in Mike's a while back (it has nickel plated keys), it looked to be in pretty good condition generally and worth having work done to get it playing - it's definitely the Marigaux made clarinet which Howarth marketed in the late '80s as their student clarinet to compete with the likes of the Buffet E11, Yamaha YCL-34IIN - and at a good price in comparison to both of the former ones. Insure it for the same price as a Yamaha YCL-450 or Buffet E11.
I'm still doing work for the 'Posh People' - I've been with them since '98 when I left Mike's, as well as private repair work (on pro clarinets and saxes), and have my own workshop at home in North Bersted.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-05-03 12:13)
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Author: vito
Date: 2006-05-03 19:47
I also have LaFleur clarinet, all wood (inclusding barrel and bell) and above thumb rest says "Made in England". My dad purchased it in early 1970's in Soviet Union. My school buddies played on Amati and this one was different than theirs. I was wondering what's the story on this one.
Vito
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Author: susieray
Date: 2006-05-03 20:12
jforsyth,
While you are waiting to get your pads, you might want to practice taking the clarinet apart and putting it back together again a few times. Do just the upper joint at first, since it is the easiest. Make sure you keep track of which screw goes where. After you feel pretty confident doing that section, then try the lower joint. You really should have a spring hook, or a very small crochet hook for the lower joint especially. The important thing is to learn which order they come off and on. If you don't put them back together in the right order, it won't work. But taking a clarinet apart and re-assembling it is simple enough once you give it a few tries! It's getting the correct size and thickness pads, getting them correctly seated, getting the key corks just the proper thickness and all the fine tuning/adjustment that takes the expertise.
BTW while you have the keys off you can also clean out the register tube and tone holes; and check for any damaged pad seats (which may need to be re-cut by an expert with the proper tools). Otherwise you will have a near impossible time getting a good tight seal!
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-05-03 20:20
When you take off the keys, be extra-careful to keep track of exactly which screw came from which hole. Many of those screws are not interchangeable, including some that look enough alike to fool you. Well, to fool me, anyhow!
Instead of trusting memory, I've got a diagram of all the clarinet keys, laid out in the order they're mounted on the instrument. The paper diagram is pasted onto a board drilled with holes to put each screw where it goes on the instrument. I got lazy and bought my screw-boards for clarinet and sax from Ferree's Tools, but if you're only repadding one clarinet, you could make your own diagram. Just be sure to label it carefully. Believe me, if those screws and threaded rods get mixed up, you'll be saying cuss words you didn't even know you knew, as you try to sort them out.
I also think that it would be a good idea to buy or borrow a book showing how to do basic clarinet overhaul work, such as the manual by Eric Brand. A lot of this stuff is surprisingly counterintuitive.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-03 21:16
With rod screws it's probably best to put them back in the key barrels when the keys are off if you don't have a screw board, and leave the point screws in the pillars so they don't get mixed up or lost.
Vito, your Lafleur might be an actual Boosey&Hawkes made clarinet if it has 'MADE IN ENGLAND' and the serial number (either 5 or 6 digits) above the thumbrest.
Does it have a metal bell ring or is there none, but a decorative turning in the wood itself?
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Author: vito
Date: 2006-05-03 21:33
Chris P,
There is no metal ring. I was looking for the history of this clarinet for the past 10 years and couldn't find much. I was looking recently on ebay and found clrinet that looks just like mine, the only difference is the case, even mouthpiece cup is the same. The description says that it's made in france and is made of ebony, but mine says "Made in England" and made of wood, all 4 parts. Here is link to ebay clarinet, item #7409861245
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7409861245&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D7409861245%26fvi%3D1
Chris,
Tahnk you for helping me to identify origins of my clarinet. I had it all my life with me!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-03 21:55
Vito,
It's definitely a B&H Edgware under a different name - I reckon it's probably from around 1965 +/- 3 years either way.
It should have a 6-figure serial number around the 210000-270000 mark as it has the later style B&H keywork (nail file LH F/C, long C#/G# touch, 'Reginald Kell' elongated side Bb/Eb key touch, single trill guide, later bridge key design - the earlier one was reversed).
And whoever got the one listed for around £60 didn't do bad at all (the one listed has the old Czechoslovakian case the earlier Amati clarinets came with).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-05-03 22:04)
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Author: jforsyth
Date: 2006-05-03 22:11
Wow guys, i really had no idea that so many people shared this obsession!
I had been trying to develop mine (my obsession) prior to purchasing my LeFleur, and now, am definately going to be in it for a while!
All this information is much appreciated, and has led me down paths which without this forum, i'd of not seen through the falling leaves of the comming winter (southern hemisphere etc)...
See?!
I'm getting all poetic and xit!
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Author: vito
Date: 2006-05-04 16:06
Chris P,
Just looked at my clarinet and serial # is 3392XX, which is higher then your range. Whould would be a difference?
Vito
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-04 21:10
There's no difference between this one and yours as far as bore, tonehole layout and keywork goes - the keywork was pretty much the same as this until the end of production of B&H clarinets in the early '80s.
But has your one got the elongated side Eb/Bb key touch as well?
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Author: vito
Date: 2006-05-04 23:55
Chris P,
i wish I knew what that "elongated side Eb/Bb key touch" is...
I guess I'll lern something new...
Vito
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-05 01:19
The lowest of the four side keys (all on the top joint for RH fiinger 1) points straight down rather than having a right angle bend in it.
Boehm systems generally have this key shaped like a golf club, but B&H fitted nearly all of their clarinets with this key in the '60s, probably influenced by German systems that have a similar shaped side Bb key and probably at the request of Reginald Kell as influential (or more likely 'London') players tend to get things made as they want, even if it isn't suitable for all. I had a B&H Series 2-20 (exactly the same as an Edgware and your Lafleur, but with a metal bell ring) with this key and it was comfortable to use.
The second picture shows this key:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7409861245&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D7409861245%26fvi%3D1
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-05-05 07:28)
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Author: vito
Date: 2006-05-05 04:43
Chris,
Exactly like on the picture. Actually very comfortable for me (cause I grew up with it I guess). Engravong on the bell is exact match, even cap and ligature, everything looks the same.
Vito
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