 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-04-28 19:07
Coughing in live recordings
This week we made live CD-recordings of Sibelius 1st and 2nd symphonies with Vladimir Ashkenazy. I had been looking forward to hear our principal play the long solo of the 1st symphony with the inspiration and electricity that only a live performance can give. The live recording was announced beforehand in two languages when the audience was kindly asked to refrain from every kind of noise especially in soft dynamics. This did not stop people from coughing and making noises during the solo in both concerts. Sadly our principal had to play the solo for the recording during the correction session because nothing from the concerts could be used. Don’t people have parents who can teach them respect?
Post Edited (2006-04-28 22:39)
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Author: Merlin
Date: 2006-04-28 19:47
When you're dealing with something like a cough, you can't always stifle it, no matter how much you want to.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2006-04-28 20:01
At least there were people present to make noise, instead of an empty house.
Alexi (glass half full)
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-28 20:08
It is sad that concert etiquette is rarely taught these days, but I'd certainly trade an unknowing audience for none at all.....it's the audience we perform for.....
Randy (glass is twice as big as it needs to be....)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-04-28 21:50
I heard a live recording of the L.A. Phil playing Rite of Spring once, and there was so much coughing I thought it was a really cool postmodernist work.
Telling people to cough might even be counterproductive in some cases, both putting the idea of coughing into people's heads and adding an extra level of nervous tension to the audience... because, of course, we don't have enough of that in orchestral concerts.
Alex (glass makes cool noises when you run a moist finger around the rim)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-28 22:19
xxit happens, people cough and it's got nothing to do with respect.
Bob Draznik
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-04-29 01:05
It is the main reason I no longer attend symphony concerts, people like to cough for the sake of it and most of the time it is just fake and unncessary ... almost as though they are marking their territory in some way.
I think chamber music audiences, on the whole seem to be more respectful of performers than run of the mill symphony attendees.
I disagree with Bob Draznik however, xxit does happen and it's because people have no manners. If you've got a damned cough ... don't attend a concert, simple.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-29 01:22
<<<<Telling people to cough might even be counterproductive in some cases>>>>
I've heard of productive coughs, but counterproductive coughs?
-Randy
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Author: GEM
Date: 2006-04-29 01:36
Victor Borge used to have a line in his act when introducing a piece, "This is a piece in which most people - - - - cough!" Almost always followed by someone coughing from the ensuing laughter. To which Borge would say, "Wait! I haven't started yet!"
GEM
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-04-29 02:22
''people like to cough for the sake of it and most of the time it is just fake and unncessary ... almost as though they are marking their territory in some way.''
I find this hard to believe. Is there any evidence for such behaviour?
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2006-04-29 09:59
You go to a concert and hear coughing...therefore a live recording with coughing will be achieving what it sets out to...to make the listener think they're at the performance.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-29 12:04
I'm wondering if Jerry Seinfeld or his writers are aware of this BB....they could certainly get some good material here. Likening a cough to "marking" animal territory is very insightful but I doubt that concert goers are so intentioned. But then....maybe down under they are.
Bob Draznik
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Author: charlie_star_uk
Date: 2006-04-29 13:06
i too agree that people cough unnecessarily.... the proof is the fact that noone is coughing.... one person coughs... then loads of others start! like yawning... it is addictive.
i also believe it is rude to cough during a performance and nearly all of the time it can be stopped.
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Author: vjoet
Date: 2006-04-29 13:33
Vladimir Ashkenazy! Though as an amateur I'll never have a chance to play under him, how I'd love to. I'd even be content to listen to a rehearsal.
I classify him as a true genius. He dares, and when he succeeds it is positively glorious. Not a serviceable, correct interpretation, but he often seems to get to a depth not often heard. I recall the first time I heard the Ashkenazy - Bell recording of the Tchaikovsky violin concerto. My reaction was: "I've never heard this before" it was so fresh, so alive, so true, so deep.
//////
Though some coughing is a nervous cough and is repressible, some is a true cough, and nothing can be done about it.
vJoe
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-04-29 13:35
Coughing is, many times, uncontrollable. Although, I will agree that concert etiquette is not taught. In college, we had to have the school MENC chapter organize a speech at the beginning of every concert asking people to shut the hell up. No joke. And where I went to school the majority of the audience was a bunch of old people who paid to get in.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-04-29 16:55
"I find this hard to believe. Is there any evidence for such behaviour?"
I've done it. And I'll bet lots of you have done it too and just won't admit it.
I don't know why... there's just something about a concert hall and coughing, it's almost like you're supposed to do it. I think it's a by-product of people being nervous or bored... once one person coughs, everyone else figures it's OK and coughs too, to break the tension.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: marcia
Date: 2006-04-29 17:00
I can put up with a small cough as it is involuntary and often there is little warning. BUT what I find extremly irritating is people who will rattle candy wrappers, programmes, and TALK during a performance. They will often look surprised when asked to desist. What do they think I have paid good money for?
How can we educate such people?
Marcia
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-04-29 17:06
BUT what I find extremly irritating is people who will rattle candy wrappers, programmes, and TALK during a performance.
Same happens in quite every kind of performance - operas, theaters (including movies), readings etc...
Here they had to put up signs telling the audience to switch off their cellular phones. (yet you can buy potato crisps and wrapped candies there...so much for consequence)
How can we educate such people?
At that age it's usually too late.
--
Ben
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-29 17:16
There was an older movie I saw a long time ago (while HBO was in its infancy and I was not to long out of mine) where Tom Bosley was a catholic priest who was taking a young seminarian under his wing and teaching him about running a parish. I won't go into the details of it, but he mentioned coughing during the sermon.....that it was an indication of boredom and that he should perhaps move things along. So the young priest-to-be was giving a sermon and the people were coughing and he was getting irritated 'til he finally broke out into something like "I wonder if the coughing lot of you know" something like how important religion was and stuff. It stuck in my mind because as a young musician I'd noticed coughing, particularly in pieces that might be more likely to induce boredom among the philistines.
-Randy
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-04-29 17:25
the philistines
<belligerent>
...Philistines? Is that what "the musician" thinks about "the audience"? 
Why don't bored people silently leave in the commercial breaks, err, intervals?
--
Ben
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-04-29 18:04
Let's face it, our concerts are boring.
<ducks>
Really, though, I think performers have erected a wall between themselves and the audience, one that hinders communication. We're so often told, "do it just like you did in the practice room. Pretend there's nobody out there." Rather than finding ways to embrace the (albeit nervous-making) fact that there are people actually listening, we block them out. How can we blame them for doing the same to us?
tictactux:
Bored people often DO silently leave in the breaks. I've done it lots of times. Many factors will keep them from leaving though:
- Expensive tickets: I paid $80 to see this and GD it, I'm gonna stay the whole time!
- Large groups: If two or three people of a group of ten are bored, they'll stay
- Friends in the ensemble: You'll be missed at the reception, and you want to "be nice." Or perhaps they're only on in the last 5 minutes.
- "Culture": Many people end up at classical concerts because they've been fed the "Classical music is culture" line, and are determined to stick it out because they think it will make them smarter or they want to be thought of highly by other people who have been fed that line.
- The door is too far and you don't want to make a scene
- Meeting someone for dessert at 10:30 and don't have anything better to do until then
- There's a piece that isn't boring later in the program
If you want less coughing, put in more intermissions and program the good stuff at the start.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: charlie_star_uk
Date: 2006-04-29 18:28
do that many people really find classical music boring? that is a big shame.
i travel on a train every day and not as many people cough as in a concert!
it is upsetting if people are finding the concerts boring.... more boring than a train journey!!!
live music is exciting and we are privileged to be able to attend concerts and hear works by genius composers performed by artists who have trained so hard for many years.
so much thought has been put into every note of these performances that the least i think an audience can do is listen!
the musicians don't cough (i am sure there has been an exception to that!!!)
i hope some people agree.
charlie
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-04-29 18:47
I didn't say classical music was boring.
I said our concerts are boring.
Big difference.
I also think the "we are privileged" attitude is what turns lots of people off to it. If we would just make the music for music's sake and not automatically expect a large, educated, attentive audience, we'd do a lot better. People (especially the coughers) very often go to classical concerts because they've been told they're supposed to.
"He worked really hard, Grandma"
"So do washing machines."
-Christmas Vacation
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: charlie_star_uk
Date: 2006-04-29 19:18
I don't believe you need to be "educated" to listen to classical music... and am not exactly sure what that means..
but, yes, attentive I do expect, this is just respectful, nothing else.
By all means, after the performance be honest in your opinion of it, but during the performance??
We are privileged to have these concerts and I am not ashamed of that.
charlie
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-04-29 19:38
we are privileged to be able to attend concerts and hear works by genius composers performed by artists who have trained so hard for many years.
And if it simply doesn't rock my boat? Genius composer? Well, some people find "Apocalypse now" the work of a genius, some other just find it boring. What bugs me most about classical music is the arrogance of its evangelists.
I think there's as much boring classical music as there is boring pop music, especially when there are lesser known works pulled from the lower drawers.
Among other things I was taught "audience centered presentation" in marketing school. Why would one one to perform "live" if one doesn't want to work with the audience? I somehow like to think that the performer:audience relation is quite similar to the conductor:performer relation, albeit on a different level. If the spark doesn't fire between these two parties everyone's missing a great experience. That's true for a pop concert as much as it is true for classical music.
Oh well, there I digress again - all this, of course, has nothing to do with "table manners", of course.
--
Ben
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-29 19:55
Just in case you were wondering, by philistines I mean the folks who are there just to make the society page, the folks who go and wouldn't know a good orchestra if it hit them in the face, as well as the 25% (or more) who are there to make a spouse/sig other happy.
When I attend a concert I view it as a spiritual experience.
-Randy
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Author: charlie_star_uk
Date: 2006-04-29 20:15
tictactux,
yes, i agree.... not all genius composers!!!! went a little too far to prove a point...
i just don't think anybody can defend coughing as a result of boredom... and see it as acceptable. if you are bored you are bored, but why interrupt everyone else's enjoyment? just seems a bit selffish.
charlie
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Author: charlie_star_uk
Date: 2006-04-29 20:16
I think people's coughing is not a result of boredom, more a lack of awareness of how disturbing it is, surely.
charlie
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-04-29 20:22
Charlie,
indeed - even a hankie in front of the mouth would demonstrate a certain level of empathy. But empathy can't be taught, or only up to a certain level. (I am often annoyed by shoppers who stand and chatter right in front of an escalator, that's the "unconscious" variety of the "annoyed cougher"). Oh well, I'm probably no saint either.
--
Ben
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-04-29 20:33
Alessandro Carbonare once played a humorous encore where the pianist had coughing fits whenever the clarinetist was playing, but then stopped whenever there were a few bars of piano solo....
... but what is REALLY ANNOYING is when cell phones go off in performance, last night in the middle of Seven Deadly Sins someone got an SMS message. sigh.
donald
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Author: charlie_star_uk
Date: 2006-04-29 20:56
oh no!! what a shame!
yes, i guess we all do things that annoy others..
i think it is what Barenboim has been talking about... active listening.. as opposed to letting the music flow over you. if you are participating in acitve listening then generally you don't cough because you are concentrating (which is why the orchestra don't usually cough!!!). maybe it is wrong to expect the musicians to entertain you with no energy of your own involved.
charlie
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-04-29 21:39
Hear hear, tictactux, on the classical evangelist and audience-centered comments.
Regarding cell phones, I think it should be perfectly acceptable for people whose phones go off during concerts to be bludgeoned mercilessly. Coughing is an indicator of the audience's personality and mood. Cell phones just suck.
As far as active listening goes, I find it very difficult to actively listen when the ensemble is playing passively. That's actually when I tend to be the most disruptive (i.e. squirmy and chatty), because I'm not given much to listen to. I would counter, charlie, that it is wrong to expect the audience to be entertained when the performers largely ignore them or act like they're at war.
I place a lot of the blame on shoddy conductors. An ensemble of professional-level musicians can only play so well when led by someone conducting at a junior high level (a couple years of lessons followed by decades of a complete lack of criticism lead very easily to this).
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: marcia
Date: 2006-04-29 22:11
Just another comment on cell phones, a few years ago the VSO (Vancouver) played Rhapsody in Blue with the conductor, Bramwell Tovey, at the piano. During a quiet passage a cell phone rang, more than once, and he just rolled his eyes at the audience and carried on.
I continue to be appaled at the lack of common courtesy in many concert goers.
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-04-30 01:26
''i too agree that people cough unnecessarily.... the proof is the fact that noone is coughing.... one person coughs... then loads of others start! ''
I think, actually, that there are many people stifling that ''necessary'' cough in the first instance because there seems to be this culture embedded in an audience where ''the first one to cough'' is seen to be the pariah. One therefore, does not wish to incure the silent wrath of one's fellow concert goers, by being first, and has to suffer from the ''withheld cough''.
I hardly think that a collective impulse runs through those would-be coughers, to copy the act simply (and unnecessarily) because someone else has started first - it's a ludicrous proposition.
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Author: robertgh
Date: 2006-04-30 03:22
"Just in case you were wondering, by philistines I mean the folks who are there just to make the society page, the folks who go and wouldn't know a good orchestra if it hit them in the face, as well as the 25% (or more) who are there to make a spouse/sig other happy.
When I attend a concert I view it as a spiritual experience."
Couldn't agree more with this sentiment. My particular beef is with the Philly-stines that infested the orchestra seating at the Academy of Music and have migrated down Broad Street to Verizon Hall at the Kimmel. Added to the coughing and cellophane-rattling of those venerable Friday afternoon series ticketholders was the all-to-frequent crackling of shopping bags being nudged or clutched during the last ten minutes or so of the concert. And that was on a quiet day—on a bad day they were on their feet, toddling up the aisles with their dead animals draped around their necks, well before the final chords.
Things were not much better at the Mann Music Center where even the most compelling performances—including an impassioned performance of the Rachmaninoff 2nd with Ashkenazy no less—were typically climaxed by twenty minutes of streaming slow-motion exodus making the long climb to the parking lots.
Uncontrollable dry-tickle coughs aside, disruptive behavior during any performance is the epitome of self-centered selfishness whether the performance is the fabulous Philadelphians or your local church organist.
Post Edited (2006-04-30 03:46)
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2006-04-30 05:04
This story reminded me of someone's experience posted several years ago on this BBS that Issac Stern shouted to a person coughing many times to get out of the hall.
I wonder why audio engineers used rather omni-directional michrophones to pick up audience noise. It might be to make the recording sound like 'live' but too much noise make it worse.
Post Edited (2006-04-30 05:33)
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2006-04-30 05:38
Glenn Gould may have thought it in the same manner and did not like making concerts.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-30 13:36
robertgh wrote:
> My particular beef is
> with the Philly-stines that infested the orchestra seating at
> the Academy of Music and have migrated down Broad Street to
> Verizon Hall at the Kimmel.
...
Cool. Let's alienate all those blasted paying customers who don't appreciate and donors who give millions to the arts (just so they can have their names in the papers). You'll be genuflecting alone at the altar of the arts when you're done.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-04-30 14:05
Current editing software can isolate and delete coughs, particularly where the digital master is available. If the opening solo in the live performance had special qualities, it could be fairly easily repaired.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-30 14:24
The smartest thing I've see is a huge jar of sugar-free hard candies at each entryway into the hall, with the advice to grab a handfull before entering. Amazing at how well they can prevent a cough.
Now, as to the person(s) who shout "Bravo" even before the last note has finished coming out of the singer's mouth in the opera ...hard candies don't work unless you've got excellent aim ...
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Author: robertgh
Date: 2006-04-30 17:40
My apologies, Mark. The Philly-stine post was a bit strong. I realize we walk a line here and in retrospect I clearly stepped over. In fairness, it was the generous endowments and contributions of loyal supporters in the region that made possible the free seating at the Mann concerts and the low-price student rush seating at the Academy concerts. And among the majority of donors I am sure that continued support stems from a solid committment to maintaining a healthy and diverse cultural life in the region and not just a chance to see one's name in the program. This also reflects a healthy committment to growing the next generation of audiences.
Having read through the posts on this thread it does strike me that the folks actually doing the performing are far more forgiving than those of us in the audiences. I suspect the experience of regularly listening to studio-sanitized high-quality playback in the comfort of our homes has created an unrealistic set of expectations when we join a couple of thousand human beings in a confined acoustic space. You're right: better a live and paying audience with all its compromises than an empty hall and empty stage. Again, my apologies.
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Author: Rick Williams
Date: 2006-05-01 14:54
Hmm, very educational, I guess a cough isn't just a cough but rather a direct attack on the hightened sensibilities of musicians.
For years I just attributed coughs to any number of variables such as some of the musty venues or the matron of the arts swimming in perfume or even something as simple as a tickle in the throat. I never realized it was an attempt by the great unwashed to destroy music and deprive those with a real understanding and appreciation of music their personal enjoyment. How could I have been so blind?
But now I'm in a quandry because I must admit that as a performer, I too have coughed during a performance. What do I do? Should I remove myself from the orchestra? Should I stuff a clarinet swab down my throat to supress further coughs? Should I stand and impale myself on the instrument as a gesture of my deep shame and as compensation to those offended?
The only resolution I can see is to never again perform in public and never again attend a live performance. Yes, that nicely solves the problem since offense can neither be given or recieved. So everyone, please stop performing now and never attend a live performance for that is the only way to solve this issue. (G) Let the sound of crickets reign!
Best
Rick
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-05-01 18:16
Forgive for airing this view as it is slightly off-topic and more than a little cynical, but I honestly don't feel that we should be supported as musicians by patrons. "Art music" (as opposed to popular stuff) has never succeeded well as a capitalist enterprise. To explain:
I went to LA a few months back to visit a friend of mine and was going to pop into see the symphony do Le Sacre du Printemps (Vesna ceyshenaya for the folks at home), one of my favorites. Unfootunately the tickets were very expensive (although my friend has since found out how to obtain cheaper seats behind the orchestra). I can't begrudge the orchestra for wanting to make money, that it is one of the top orchestras employing brilliant musicians, and they live in LA where EVERYTHING is expensive (housing, real estate, breathing). The problem is that the people who really want to go to concerts such as these probably can't afford the tickets. Students have a window where they can get student tickets, but once you're not a student anymore that doesn't really help.
If we really want to see lots of people going to symphony concerts (never a bad thing) and other fine arts events, I feel that these should be fully subsidized by the government. In this case the people who are just showing up for the society page will compete against us who have no hope for the society page but an excellent chance of really enjoying the concert. Who knows, maybe the society types will find parties and other things where they can feel free to laugh and talk and cough to their hearts' content.
Just a little pontification!
-Randy
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-05-01 18:22
Cuisleannach wrote:
> Who knows, maybe the society types will find parties and other
> things where they can feel free to laugh and talk and cough to
> their hearts' content.
My, we are cynical ... the well-off can enjoy just as much as the poor, and they do - more often.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-05-02 01:57
It's routine to remove coughing from recordings made live, before and audience. Editing the initial plosive, once found pretty much makes it disappear. The waveform is markedly different from the background levels and the spike is often huge, but brief.
If the orchestra is loud enough, it can scarcely be heard, even unedited.
Production time isn't cheap, I suppose, but I dislike retakes on principle.
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-05-03 00:58
<<My, we are cynical ... the well-off can enjoy just as much as the poor, and they do - more often.>>
This is certainly true, but at the price of a good symphony ticket the poor won't have the chance to enjoy. It's sort of akin to saying that the well off enjoy driving mercedes or jaguars and they do it more often. It has as much to do with access as preference. I'm not saying that we should limit anybody's chance to go to a concert....merely to expand the chance. Until we make concert-going an egalitarian affair we will never attract more than a fringe of the possible market.
When I was a student I played "The Planets" for a bunch of kids who were required to go to the concert. We talked to the kids afterwards, many of whom had never heard an orchestra in their lives. They were expecting something really boring and were quite vocal about how much they had been blown away by the performance....and this was a student orchestra doing a decidedly less than perfect performance. The same thing happened with a much better orchestra and a much better performance of the Pines of Rome.
-Randy
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Author: libera_clarinet
Date: 2006-05-03 04:00
Has anyone ever tried to stifle a cough during a performance? In my experience, it's quite a task. I really don't think anyone in the audience is out to get any of us, nor are they ignorant in that vein. True, cellphones are QUITE obnoxious; you would think, in this day and age, that people would know better. But last time I checked, coughing was an automatic function of the body.
Besides, some coughing here and there emphasizes the authenticity of a live performance. I recently put down an amateur recording of the Quartet for the End of Time, and our pianist had some loud, nasty page turns. He was quite apologetic about them, but I feel like those - as well as the notes that I missed - are great indicators of a true "live recording."
Lastly, I have to applaud Rick Williams. Good post.
-- ML
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Author: robertgh
Date: 2006-05-03 04:31
Cuisleannach wrote:
<If we really want to see lots of people going to symphony concerts (never a bad thing) and other fine arts events, I feel that these should be fully subsidized by the government.>
When you are fully subsidized by the government's money, you will of course be fully at the mercy of the government's view of what is good for you and your audiences. But that's okay; we know that we're led by benign, enlightened philosopher-kings at all levels of government who would never interfere with our activities.
Of course, I could be wrong. . . .
Post Edited (2006-05-03 04:32)
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2006-05-04 16:25
As Mark mentioned, some orchestras provide a bin of hard candies or cough drops. The Indianapolis Symphony has one full of cough drops--the wrappers are even noiseless. Why don't more groups do this? I'm almost willing to bet that the coughdrop or candy manufacturers would provided them at a discount (or maybe even for free).
I even get irked when a nearby patron rattles a candy wrapper while opening it up and then while wadding it up.
I recall a performance of one of my groups where the other bass clarinetist was almost dying trying (and succeeding) in supressing the urge to cough during a guest soloists performance. I searched my pockets in vain for at least a tissue to give her.
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Author: bawa
Date: 2006-05-05 08:13
Mark,
1. That bit about the sweets: they really work!! Here, I find that a lot of people, especially older, have the habit of carrying traditional (hard boiled) sweets about their person, which they readily offer, and I have made myself acquire this habit, as it is very useful in many situations. Even the wrappers are silent (wax papers/ or in a little box)...but having them by the door would be great!!!
2. I seem to remember from my London days that all concert programmes used to carry a warning about coughing etc and how much "noise" it produced, and advice on at least using a handkerchief, and how much "noise" was reduced by this simple measure...does that not happen any more?
That bucket idea is too dangerously tempting, for situaitons with cell-phones and others.
Scene at the last recital I attended in the music school.
Teenage pupil on stage playing the 2nd movement of the Tchaikosky Violin Concert.
Total audience: about 15 people, either parents + a couple of teachers
First, we hear the RIGHT-HAND side outer doors being "noisily opened" (you can open them quietly if you do it slowly).
There are heavy curtains in the actual entrance and a space between them & the doors. Does she wait there? Of course not, comes sailing in. Stops, looks around in the audience for someone.
Sees that someone, her face lights up. That someone is sitting on the LEFT side of the hall, towards the LEFT end of that row
Walks right across the front of the stage, from right to left, then walks UP the CENTRAL AISLE (her friend is on the LEFT end of the row, remember, which also has an aisle), squeezes through all the seats to get to the one right beside her friend, and flops down and starts talking to her friend!!
What do you with people like that?
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Author: sweetsimplicity
Date: 2006-05-06 02:45
coughing is hard to stop..unless its a very small one..at our chirstmas concert in December, we heard alot of noises suchs as someone's cell phone going off (even though we told them to turn cells off), kida getting impatient and making noise and people just being rude (candy wrappers, talking etc etc.) it made me feel real bad and mad cause we worked hard to get our pieces ready and the least they could do is actually listen to us...but ive gotten over this and im kinda used to it by now =)
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2006-05-08 01:45
You know, I'd be thrilled to go back to the audience enthusiasm and rowdiness of Mozart's time, if it meant that the hall was full of listeners wanting to hear the performance. I simply cannot believe that anyone believes audiences cough on purpose or out of rudeness. If you record a live concert, there will be noise. If you try to shame audiences out of even the ability to shift in their seat, they won't come back. Shame on us.
Sue Tansey
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Author: charlie_star_uk
Date: 2006-05-08 16:16
how do you annoy the berlin phil wind quintet......
let your mobile go off during their performance! happened yesterday at wigmore hall... felt sorry for the person who had forgotten to turn it off!! the entire audience let out a huge sigh and tutted! i think the culprit was too scared to show it was them so they didn"t dare turn it off... went on for ages.
i don't think the quintet were happy at all!! their attitude changed for a bit after that.
thank god it wan't me!
charlie
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Author: RussM
Date: 2006-05-08 16:40
I suggest that the solution is to have cell phones which make a coughing sound when they ring. That way, no one would notice them at concerts.
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Author: bawa
Date: 2006-05-08 16:45
3dogmom,
Well, one thing is an "active" audience like in Mozart's time - still exists in Indian classical music today- another is like people we are talking about with candy wrappers or walking through all the seats noisily in the middle of a piece, or carrying on long conversations: especially when kids are playing.
I remember another incident here with a rather famous pianist; who got so fed up of people who kept trickling in after he had started (and he had waited a bit too, for the late-comers); that he simply stopped in the middle, took out his handkerchief, wiped his hands, the keys...that STOPPED all whispering, seat banging, etc etc to a pin drop silence, while everyone watched him: at which he said, I will now play the piece so & so...and started - from the beginning!
At which no one dared move again. People who were there for the music, had the chance to hear the pieces, and people who were there for other reasons, didn't dare move for the rest of the concert, lest he stop and start all over again!!!
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2006-05-09 05:50
<<<You know, I'd be thrilled to go back to the audience enthusiasm and rowdiness of Mozart's time, if it meant that the hall was full of listeners wanting to hear the performance.>>>
Considering where medical science was back then, I imagine the amount coughing that must have gone on in Mozart's time would put present day coughing to shame. A lot more people were sickly back in those days, and effective treatments had not been invented.
I would not fault present day coughers. Some people don't have the best nasal plumbing, and post nasal drip can be hard to control. In general, older people are going to have more problems. Lots of people have a variety of allergies. Also, more people are prone to illness during the winter in northern climes, especially when the heat is on and humidity is low. What would be more disturbing? People suppressing their coughs in place, or a steady procession of folks leaving and re-entering the concert hall during the performance? I've been at concerts where I've seen some dramatic trips and falls when (usually older) people try to exit a darkened hall (dealing with stairs, risers, other audience members, etc.) while trying to choke back a coughing, sneezing or choking fit. I remember seeing one incident where a gentleman attempting to exit quickly wiped out and tumbled down a steep set of stairs, and had to be carried out.
Certainly, people should do the best they can to be as quiet as possible, but expecting total silence is unreasonable. I really think that some concert goes actually enjoy getting upset about distractions. It makes them feel morally superior in some way. Personally, the malevolently indignant correctors and shushers at concerts irritate me even more than the coughers, sneezers, snifflers, and candy wrapper rustlers. Keep in mind that with the graying of orchestra attendents, you're going to have a certain percentage of folks with early stages of Alzheimers or other forms of dementia. Older patrons with hearing loss might also not think that anyone else can hear their whispering.
I really believe that you go to a concert to be part of a live event in real time. You do not go to a live concert for perfect sonics or a perfect performance. If you want perfection, listen to a recording. When you listen to a studio recording (i.e. a recording without extraneous noise produced by an audience) you will not be distrubed. Additionally, there's absolutely no way that you can have the sonics and presence of an expertly recorded performance played back through a decent reproduction system while attending a live performance. Optimal positioning of microphones, and spot mics to add focus and clarity to certain instruments will yield sonics that are far superior to the best seat in the house. Right or wrong (and without regard to hearing damage), a lot of younger listeners are also accustomed to much more volume than can be produced acoustically, even in a great hall. To many younger listeners, live acoustic music sounds disappointingly anemic.
Post Edited (2006-05-09 05:53)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-05-09 06:25
"Optimal positioning of microphones, and spot mics to add focus and clarity to certain instruments will yield sonics that are far superior to the best seat in the house."
I have never heard a recording that sounded as good acoustically as a live performance in a good hall (that fits the music), and I've heard some really great recordings!
Post Edited (2006-05-09 06:34)
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Author: D
Date: 2006-05-09 08:47
I am inclined to believe that any coughing, or other disruption which annoys the musicians, is partially caused by karmic retribution for all those dreadful school concerts that our parents were forced to attend. I think mine should have had a medal and been paid to turn up, rather than having to fork out for their own torture once or twice a term.
My younger brother (now a pHD student afer having worked for a few years) has now taken up music at his university club. And our poor parents have just been to hear his second concert. I think I should make them chocolate cake......
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The Clarinet Pages
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