 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2006-04-28 20:06
I have been told that if one joins a US Army band after college graduation, certain student loans will be forgiven. Is this true, and if so, what type of loan is it?
Thanks!
Chris
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Author: Brianj
Date: 2006-04-28 20:23
Chris,
I have been a clarinet player for the Army for 16 years, and just got done doing a tour as a Recruiter, so here it goes. As a musician in the Army, you can get up to $65,000 in student loans paid back by the Army. It depends on a few different factors, so check with your local recruiter, and if they do not know much about the band field, have them call their brigade band liason. If that fails, I will do the research for you. The information changes so much, I don't want to make any promises I can't keep. But, yes we do repay student loans.
SSG Brian Jungen
399th Army Band
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-04-28 22:09
I believe the current amount is $65,000 paid off in the first enlistment. That's a pretty damn good deal. During one of the auditions I ran during my years at the U.S. Army Field band we had 2 clarinetists from Northwestern University, one a doctoral student (abd) and 85,000 in student loans another with $70,000 in debt. Neither made it past the curtain round. We ended up hiring an undergrad that had a scholarship and no debt! So if you're in the hole I'd take every Army band audition you can.
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-04-29 01:07
Tom - good to see you play the trumpet too ... your own that is.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-04-29 01:10
How did I blow my own horn? but when I do they have Backun barrels and bells on them!!!!!
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2006-04-29 02:45
http://www.goarmy.com/benefits/education_money.jsp
Just a little information.
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/blarenlistmentprogram-4.htm?terms=army+loan
A little more information.
in a nutshell, you have to score high enough on your AVSAB (which I'm willing to wager most musicians would), you have to choose an MOS which participates with that program (army band does), and you can ONLY choose one of the incentives. So you either choose the GI bill OR the college loan repayment. not both. You get discharged before your complete your first three years of service, you no longer qualify (and more than likely, although I'm not sure, have to pay back whatever has been paid back). The pay 33 and 1/3% of the loan each year for three years. Whether it takes into account interest or not, I'm not sure.
This is a quick summary of the "about.com" summary. Which is pretty usefel and accurate information.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2006-04-29 04:10
Thanks for all of the help! This information should be very helpful for a particular student of mine. (I'm WAY too old for the military!)
Chris
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2006-04-29 05:46
Last September, when I was 38, I attended a recital by the USAF Soutwest
Winds quintet out of Lackland AFB/San Antonio when they came to Corpus Christi. Afterward during the Q&A, I asked about recruiting req's, and was told the max age was 34, and that I should think about applying. Boy, did I want to hug that clarinetist who suggested it -- thinking I was still under the 34 max recruiting age. If I wasn't already married, I woulda proposed (she was a fine-lookin sarge, too!).
So the moral is, a US military musician gig is a sweet gig for anyone who can get it. So go for it while you're still young enough!
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
Post Edited (2006-04-29 06:05)
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-04-30 17:21
My brother was in the Army Drum and Bugle Corps back in the 60s. Long time ago, but he got some great experience. During a tour at Ft. Monmoth, NJ, he played in clubs in NYC and gained quite a reputation for himself as an up and coming trumpet player in the vein of Al Hirt. However, he got transfered from the NY area, got married and that was that for the budding pro career that was beginning thanks to the U.S. Army. He never had the money to return and had the responsibility of a new family that forced him to put down roots. He still plays, however, and is quite good--just doens't get paid for it. He went through college on the G.I. bill (changed somewhat since the 60's and 70's) and got a master's in psychology. Go figure.
So, I say that to say this, being in the military music program is a good thing. It's like an internship in performance and discipline. Good for you and good for us. And, as a parent who has paid for 2 sons to go to college, getting your student loans paid is a big benefit.
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2006-04-30 18:15
The US Army will pay back some $65,000 in school loans. It is and either/or situation in reference to the G.I. Bill.
Let's be clear here, and I am speaking from the experience of the "right now", not "used to be"...it isn't all glory and debt-be-gone. Don't allow the hype to confuse you.
I auditioned for the Army Field Band and made it to the final round. Apparently this got me the opportunity to choose my first duty stationed when I enlisted: I chose Ft. Monroe, a Major Command band. Ft. Monroe was like the picture being painted here. Ft. Monroe is currently "going away".
At my one year mark in the U.S. Army I received orders to Korea (where I am typing from now). My orders were to send me to Korea (a 1-year assignment) with less than 1-year left. This was, according to Army regulations, against the "rules". Point being, the top of my orders read, "Exceptions to 'time on station' have been made. You will comply."
The Army says, not promises mind you, that it will repay $65,000 in school loans. Word of advice? Make sure your loans are consolidated into a single account. My loans were designated with two account numbers (SSN and SSN+A) Neither account alone had $65,000 in the balance and even though they are both through the government Ford Direct Loans (consolidated), the Army will only pay on one of them. I am doing my three years but am getting shorted about $10,000 on the advertised $65,000 repayment.
Lastly, for lacking desire to put all of my laundry out, the U.S. Army forced me to go to Korea and then promptly lost my household goods. In my household goods was a personally built computer that had well over $3000 invested into it (a dual processor Tyan Xeon server motherboard, etc). The U.S. Army gave a pat $1600 rate with 75% depreciation equalling out to $400 for my lost computer. I complained, my 1SG complained, my Commander (supposedly) complained...nothing.
The big picture point here? Sure, it sounds nice about the $65,000 and all, but reality often paints a different picture painted by an artist who often does not use as much green in their work. If you are a college graduate looking to join the U.S. Army for school loan repayment...well...think before you leap.
Robert
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-04-30 18:46
Robert Moody--Clarinet, The United States Continental Army Band
is that the band at Ft. Monroe?
When I took my original Army Band audition, it was at Ft. Meade's 1rst army band. I played concertino took this ridiculous Watkins-farnim sight reading test. The 1rst sarge, picked up the phone called the Field Band and told them they had a clarinet player for them. Well I grew up in Baltimore and wanted to get the hell out of Dodge. I was studying with Russianoff and wanted to play in the 26th army Band on Statin Island. So I went to basic, did 3-4 weeks at the USAESOM and was in NY 4 months into my enlistment, not the nine months it takes with a full stay at the SOM. Well the army guaranteed a one year assignment. If it takes 9-10 months to get to your assignment and you have one year guaranteed, there usually isn't enough time to send you any where else on an enlistment. So by advancing through the School I ended up making myself in the words of the army "levy able" and that's just what they wanted to do to me. I was informed that I was the most "leveyable" clarinetist in the Army and that I was most likely on my way to Korea in a few months. Then I got a call from the US Army Field Band and they wanted to know if I was "interested" in being in a Special band. Well let's see, Ft. Meade, permanent, and a promotion to E-6 or Marching around on the DMZ playing "gonna fly now" in combat gear in the cold!! I took Ft Meade.
Though the band in NY was one of the most fun gigs I could have, I would never take a gig in an Army Line Band. There is too much crap that can happen to you. Also unless you're going into "the Presidents Own" in down town D.C. stay away from any Marine music gig unless you're into being a real marine.
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-04-30 20:16
Well, I'm glad to see that some who have been in the modern US military are validating my experiences from the 1960's.
Bandsmen (and bandswomen) have always been special folks in any military, but 'tis important to realize that when you join up you are in the military first and foremost. "Special" only goes as far as they want it to.
While I was a member of the Famous Fighting 4th Infantry Division band for a very brief period (during spring of 1970), I saw the signs of what was about to happen in Cambodia, called in a few debts and got my young butt into the divisional armored cavalry squadron toute d'suit. (I had been in the just-sent home divisional tank battalion)
For, you see, while I was a capable enough clarinet and sax player, I also was in possession of that wonderful 11B MOS (leg infantry under the old system of designations then in effect). Over the next couple of months, I saw all of those similarly blessed as I could have been (infantry MOS but in a different, non-combat duty slot) stripped out and sent to the line infantry battalions to flesh them out for the Cambodian excursion. And, it's not very pleasant to be snatched from playing trumpet one day and placed into a grunt unit for the rest of your tour as several bandsmen of my acquaintance found.
Different war, of course, and I (with my infantry training) had no written guarantee that all would go well. Still, commanding a tank or an ACAV was far better duty than legging it around with a sixty pound rucksack.
The knife cut all ways, as well. Towards the end of my tour, I lost two members of my tank crew who were both originally 11C trained ("mortarmen", who operated the light artillery-like weapons that the infantry depended upon a lot back then) when a critical shortage of that specialty came about. They were there one day (Amadori and Buck-Buck), and gone completely by the next evening, no warning. (And leaving me so short-crewed that I had the platoon medic for a loader for a week.)
My main point here is, as it was back then, that if you are a warm body and the military needs you for a slot, they will move heaven and earth to get you there if they can. And, it could be much, much worse. While being sent to a band in Korea is not ideal duty, being thrust into the meat grinder may be another thing entirely.
And these days, that "I'm going to only be a bandsman/woman!" promise may not be worth all that much. My young son's ex-girlfriend joined up to get culinary training. She signed a contract that guaranteed her this duty upon successful completion of the training and all of that.
Well, she got that, exactly as promised. However, she was then placed into some sort of ad hoc security battalion that did nothing but pull base camp guard over in the current war zone for her entire tour there the first time, and for a second tour later on. Twelve hours on, twelve hours off, high temperatures all day and cold all night, primitive living conditions; in short almost as bad as a real combat unit, with only a week off in Qatar in the middle for relief. Not the Central Highlands in 1970, but not exactly working in a mess hall at Fort Meade, either.
(We had whole infantry battalions in RVN that were dedicated to the same sort of work, guarding the Air Force facilities and so on. But, that was back in the days of hundred thousand man deployments, and a huge Regular Army. Those conditions do not obtain these days.)
The way that things have been going over the past three years has exerted a major influence on how our military is structured. Whole brigades of the now-vital National Guard have been converted from artillery and armored units into leg infantry and military police, thence to be sent over to be fed into the grinder. Regular Army armor and artillery have parked their hi-tech weapons and have been converted into convoy guard units in light trucks and HMMV "scout vehicles". Even the Air Force and Navy are retraining their folks to better serve in the security role, this to liberate more "real" combat units for active combat duty.
And, I hope that there's no one here so biased as to not be able to accept that our military needs people to do the fighting more than it needs special services folks (basketball and gymnastics folks), clerk typists, ceremonial guards at the White House and the Tombs of the Unknowns, and (yes) bandsmen and women. Push comes to shove, things can be changed, and woe betide those in the path of such change (as my son's ex-girlfriend found out right quick).
Negative thoughts, I know. But, you never can be 100% certain of the promises made by the government. I've been working for them for well over thirty years, and they always hold the upper hand when push comes to shove.
In the civilian portion of same, I've seen people promised a hire at GS 9 but then told that the letter hiring them was graced with a typo, and that their salary would be paid at the GS 5 rate. I've seen two offices in different cities consolidated into one in a third city, and the employees told to move it or lose it (which meant sacrifice of spouse's jobs, children's schooling and having to sell your house at a loss in a depressed market (this last is no longer the case, by the way)).
And, that's just in the civilian market. The military one is far more abrupt and disruptive for those who don't accept the concept that you belong to them whole-heartedly.
And, don't put me down as being anti-military. I did my two year draft commitment, literally volunteering (twice) for combat units (both armored units, done against the hazard of being sent to a line infantry unit, to be sure), and spent three years in the Guard after returning from my active service. It certainly will help some folks grow up, you can learn a useful trade in the bargain, and they do have a decent record of making the payroll each and every month.
I've also had the Army live up to a promise, one that I valued pretty highly once it was all said and done. When being returned from RVN, I was offered the option of selecting my CONUS post for the duration of my commitment. I was scheduled to go to Fort Riley KS, a post literally in the middle of nowhere, but I managed to get that routed to Ft Knox KY (just outside of Louisville, and a particularly nice post to boot). The catch was that I had to become a drill instructor for my last seven months in the military.
Now, drill instructor's school and the subsequent duty of shoving unwilling draftees through the "system" and making them into soldiers in the bargain was not exactly heaven on earth. But, it was better than running out my time in a drug-laced line infantry unit at Riley. Here, it turned out that what I wanted and what the Army wanted were the same thing.
But, if you aren't willing to put yourself in certain hazardous situations where you will be "indispensable" and too disruptive to transfer, you might end up being traded to somewhere else for ten pounds of coffee placed into the right hands (very true story, involving an excellent banjo player who refused to bathe). Something to think about.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
Post Edited (2006-04-30 22:55)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2006-05-01 01:07
This is a two parter.
About the training of army musicians
I'm going through the USAESOM right now. For those wondering, after basic training, you get sent to AIT (advanced individual training) which for musicians is the United States Army Element School Of Music (USAESOM) at a naval base in Virginia.
Your papers say that you'll be here 23 weeks and 1 day. it's variable. It depends on many factors. When you get here, you have to take an incoming audition. Score high enough, and you can probably leave very soon for a special band (probably what happened with Mr. Tom Puwalski above). Score way too low on the incoming or any of the various monthly assessments (which shouldn't happen if the field auditioners are doing their job correctly and you are practicing), and you can be re-classed (change of job) because you aren't meeting the requirements.
Before you can even START classes and therefore your monthly assessments, you have to wait until enough people show up to officially start a class. Could be days, could be months. All depends on how lucky you are when you show up. (for me, I waited five weeks to START my "23 week" course. but I looked at the bright side and used that time to relax before the stress of classes and practice to be that much further ahead than the people who just came out of basic training and haven't touched their horns in months)
At the three month period, there is a mid-term assessment. Score high enough, and you may have the option of graduating at THAT time, instead of waiting the full 23 weeks. If you don't score high enough (or choose not to leave early), you have another assessment at 6 months which will determine whether you graduate or not.
All this time, you are getting weekly lessons, playing in various ensembles, practicing your marching, and well, just practicing.
At any either point, when you graduate (3, or 6 month), you have to wait around for another FTX (field training exercise) to begin so you can complete your FTX before leaving the school of music. Could be up to a month. So all in all, although on paper it says my total training within basic training and AIT combined should be 36 weeks before arriving at my first duty station, it could vary anywhere from 24 weeks, to around 40 weeks.
As per the comments above about the non-musical aspects
As I haven't served a term yet, I don't speak for experience, but from the comments above about how you can be stationed wherever and have your orders changed, I willingly know AND accept this. Hell, my first duty station is Hawaii. Which I chose as per my contract (which allowed me my duty station of choice, something the army does for most(all?) new musicians), however the hawaiin band is being deployed in August for a one year tour in Iraq. So technically, I really won't be living in Hawaii until August of 2007 and will spend some time over there in the sandbox. But I knew it was a possibility and willingly accept it (especially coming from a guy who had resolved to try out for the band, and go Army Ranger if he couldn't pass the audition).
Yes, you can play music in the army, but make sure that you are willing to accept changes and possiblities of having to do some physical stuff and be deployed. Don't think that it's ALL music. Unless you are good enough and get into the special bands. And if your questionable, email those people above who have done tours and know what the army musician life is like firsthand. I did my research, just make sure that anyone who is debating this does theirs instead of just assuming that things will go a certain way, and being dissapointed and upset when they don't.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2006-05-01 01:09)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-05-01 01:16
sfalexi wrote:
...
Sounds similar to what I ended up doing when I served 8 years in the Navy: "Join the Navy & see the world" goes the slogan.
The slogan was right. At least 2/3rds of the time I was looking at water with no land in sight, so the percentage was just about right.
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Author: ken
Date: 2006-05-01 01:35
Last month I had correspondence with the Army Band Recruiting SNCO for the whole career field. For the most accurate and current policy and directives -- as it pertains to Army Band educational benefits and student loan incentive programs -- SFC Chiara is the official source for Q&As. v/r Ken
SFC Mick Chiara
HQ, USAREC
Senior Band Recruiting Liaison
1-800-223-3735 ext. 6-0485
DSN 536-0485
Michael.chiara@usarec.army.mil
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2006-05-01 07:47
Just a reminder to anyone who reads Ken's information and pursues talking to SFC Chiara: SFC Chiara will tell you what he knows and what is on paper. The truth hangs a little on and a little off that paper.
Do not join an Army Band unless you, like Alexi above, are fully considering and accepting that there may (will) be periods (long periods) of playing Army and not your instrument.
As much as the military is NOT for me, I do recognize that it IS for some. Here are some good things to consider:
1. Steady paycheck.
2. Getting a raise is a matter of time and a little effort on your part.
3. Medical benefits is nice to not have to worry about. (Though, depending on your environment, you may just be another nuisance to the system rather than a human needing help.)
4. It is honorable service.
5. You will certainly learn new things...about people and other things.
Things to consider, from my view, on why you might not want to sign on the line:
1. The right way, the wrong way, the Army way and my way. Since I out-rank you...we'll do it my way.
2. Making "music" (the creative side) is not a priority or even a need, at times. Blow the notes and head to the next job.
3. The regular Army (not the Special Bands) sucks creativeness out of you. Nearly all the eager and excited musicians I have met are E-5 and below and still dream of auditioning for a Special Band. I have yet to see an E-7 that is pushing any creative boundaries.
4. You have little control over your life and your time. This varies, but even when you think you have control...you can easily be reminded that you don't. A "hooah" E-6 squad leader has the right to take your weekend to "train" you if they see fit. There go your plans.
5. Just when you think you know a "rule" in the Army, someone exhibits how it can be changed to "suit the needs" of the Army. For example, Army Regulation (AR) 670-1 dealing with uniforms states: "Soldiers may starch BDUs and the maternity work uniform, at their option. <B>Commanders will not require</B> soldiers to starch these uniforms, and soldiers will not receive an increase in their clothing replacement allowance to compensate for potential premature wear that may be caused by starching uniforms." In the two bands I have been in (and in others that I heard from) we are required to starch the uniforms.
All I ask is that you think about it and be honest with yourself. It is usually not what you think when you sign the line.
Robert
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-05-01 15:36
Starched fatigues were only equaled in stupidity by the tendency of some units in Vietnam to required highly shined jungle boots. Thankfully, the new footwear does not admit to such stupidity.
Some units (down in Saigon, from what I heard) required their personnel to strip the blacking from the insignia worn on the collars. So, you had people walking around in starched battle dress, with spit shined boots and with shiny brass insignia at their necks.
And, this sort of insanity does not discriminate. When I was there, there were some battalion commanders who wanted to emulate our South Korean allies and start paste-waxing the armored vehicles. Just when you think you've heard everything, something like that crops up.
Not stuff that pertains to bandsmen, you may say. Well, I heard discussion once about the military music of an Italian elite unit (the Bersaglieri, a specialized type unit of light riflemen) that has a band that marches at the trot and plays at the same time (including the bassoons, by the way), and how it might be neat to emulate that performance. (These hearties can be seen practicing their magic at the start of the classic movie Roman Holiday, should you doubt that this can be done.) So, there are some additional forms of madness out there that could be practiced, even on the relatively sheltered military musicians.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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