 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2006-04-26 09:13
I can dismantle, repad, change springs etc - in an amateur sort of way - though it takes me ten times longer than a professional!
Yesterday I was checking over a beautiful old Couesnon that I haven't looked at for a long time and is on my list of 'things to do'. I realised that there was a huge difference between chalumeau Eb when played with top 2 left hand keys+ sliver key and Eb played with top lh key + top rh key. The latter was so sharp, it could almost be E.
As far as I can see, the pads are sealing well. I did check. Is pad height here crucial? I can't think what else it could be.
Thanks,
Steve
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-26 10:32
If you're playing Eb as a 'long Eb' (xoo|xoo) then this note is definitely sharper in the low register on all clarinets, if the long Bb in the upper register is also sharp then flatten it by putting other RH fingers down, or if it's extremely sharp on both notes (Eb and Bb) and no finger corrections work, fill the tonehole chimney for LH finger 2 to flatten it.
The tonehole positions and sizes for the cross Eb (sliver) and side Eb key are different on some clarinets, so the pitch when playing xx'o|ooo or xxo side Eb/Bb|ooo will be different - I'm not sure why some makers do this when in theory the Eb/Bb toneholes should really be the same.
On some Selmers the tonehole position (distance along the body) and diameter for these Eb/Bb tonehles is the same - on a Centered Tone Bb they're both 6mm and in the same relative position on the body, but on Buffets the 'sliver' key tonehole is a different diameter and set at a different position - I think it's a smaller tonehole set higher up the joint in relation to the side Bb/Eb tonehole, without a Buffet clarinet (R13 etc) with me I'm hazarding a guess at that.
Pad height isn't going to change the pitch unless the venting is low, in which case it can shade or flatten a note - but if the venting is low to flatten a note it can also make it very stuffy in the low register.
You can alter the tuning of the sharp side or cross Eb by filling the tonehole with Blu Tack or plasticine and preserve the venting ( with the minimum of 2mm up to 2.8 maximum) so the note is clear in the low register.
I know someone with a one-piece Couesnon clarinet (with a throat A trill key for RH 1 - looks like the front Bb key flutes have for RH 1), so I might check to see how the tonehole layout is for these toneholes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-04-26 10:38)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-26 11:12
1. Just make sure that the the low ring key is fully closing the pad on the A/D key, via the 'bridge' linkage.
2. The side Eb/Bb key is opens a tone hole that is dedicated to those two notes. By contrast, the 1-1 (or 1-1,2 etc) uses tone holes that happen to be there for other notes. A maker does not want to compromise those other notes, so the 1-1 one fingering often is out of tune, different in tone, or even quite unstable. Different makers settle on different compromises.
Regarding Chris's comments on the "sliver" key's tone hole often having a different diameter and location, I assumed that was so that the player had more options for the best tuning and tone for either Eb/Bb, or certain top register fingerings.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-26 12:05
Having asked a clarinet maker about the arrangement and positions of the various Eb/Bb keys (and why they're in different positions, etc.), they mentioned this is a bit of a sensitive issue or a 'grey area' on the clarinet.
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2006-04-26 12:45
This brings up an interesting question. Why are there so many fingerings for Eb/Bb? On a regular clarinet there are 3, and with a forked Bb there are 4.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-26 14:16
I do use the long Bb a lot, but it does need a certain amount of embouchure control for it not to fly up to a high G when playing at ff.
Otherwise I use the forked Bb (xox|ooo) where I can as I have that mechanism fitted on most of my clarinets (even on my plastic Yamaha, but unfortunately not on my old R13 Eb clarinet), or the side Bb - I've blocked up the cross key (sliver) as it gets in the way of my fat fingers and I have never used it or found a use for it.
I see in the CASS magazine that Artie Shaw's 'Gramercy 5' Buffet has had this key taken off and the holes filled in.
If it's good enough for Artie Shaw...
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-04-26 14:21
Tony Beck wrote:
> This brings up an interesting question.
> Why are there so many fingerings for Eb/Bb?
> On a regular clarinet there are 3, and
> with a forked Bb there are 4.
There are more than 3 (or 4) fingerings for the Bb5...GBK
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2006-04-26 18:14
I was thinking of the Eb4 more than the Bb5. You can tell I'm a duffer. Last night I used three of the Eb4 fingerings at various points, as well as alternates for several other notes, to get through a band transcription of the 1812 Overture. That's what got me thinking about all the alternatives.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2006-04-30 14:20
Thanks for all your replies. Chris and Gordon, your posts are as usual worth their weight in gold!
In fact, I've managed to improve the sharpness of the x00 x00 fingering by using a slightly longer barrel - although at the expense of the other fingering. The bridge mechanism, as far as I can see, is working perfectly. I also compared the pad heights and pitch with other clarinets and I think that this problem, although as you say, occurs in all clarinets, may be particularly characteristic of Couesnon. Well, mine at least.
Strangely the clarinet where this fingering gave the closest to the standard Eb fingering was an old Normandy 10. This is a strange clarinet. The wood feels harder or denser to me and the bore is quite rough compared to the nice smooth bores of the others. I've no idea how, or where to accurately measure the diameter, but when I use the Doc's oiling rod, it definitely feels very slightly tighter than the others.
Another thing I noticed was how easy it is to get the altissimo notes out of it. They just pop out with no effort at all. Is this related to the diameter of the bore?
Now, about the Bb fingering..... ;-)
Steve
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-30 16:47
Cheers Steve!
I think large bore clarinets do speak much easier in the altissimo register when compared to smaller bore clarinets - my clarinet teacher was envious of me at the ease in which I (and he) could get my old Selmer Centered Tones to speak up top when compared to his Buffet RC (and later RC Prestige) set. As well as the full weighty sound they make in the low register.
I felt my Centered Tones were much easier up in the stratosphere when I compared them to a 10S or R13 - not to say the latter were poor by any means, they just felt more resistant.
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-04-30 19:27
Gordon is correct that the difference in tonehole placement/pitch between the side e/b flat key and the sliver key is deliberate- this is in fact commented on in the Rose complete method and in the Hamelin Scales book (where advice is given regarding both technical ease and appropriate intonation in different keys).
donald
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-03-24 05:46
My backup clarinet has an uncomfortably sharp Eb4 ![[Eb4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/eb4.gif) when fingered (xoo|xoo), compared to the other 2 fingerings with sliver or side keys. (This is a Lyrique 2nd sold to me cheap with known intonation issues- thanks!- better than a random eBay Vito at that price- but I've already solved a sharp throat Bb problem- another thread- and this is the only issue remaining that keeps this horn from playing as well for me as my primary Arioso.)
I was glad to find this thread. I will check "Gordon's #1" first since that's easy and apparently is a common issue. Then I guess I'll start working with Blue Tack or Funtack or whatever. And I'll let you know how it goes.
Old threads are fun.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-03-24 06:36
A lot of forked and cross fingerings that work in the upper register on clarinets rarely work successfully in the lower register - you can get a good upper register G# with the fingering xxo|xxo but that won't work as an alternative lower register C# as it's too sharp and also resistant.
Likewise with the long Eb fingering xoo|xoo - it's only useful in fast running passages or as a grace note where it's of no great importance, but used as a melody note or trill fingering, it will be a bit too sharp.
Lower register notes on clarinet tend to favour short or keyed fingerings over forked or cross fingerings as the note you want will issue directly from its allocated tonehole instead of being influenced profoundly (ie. flattened) by other fingers that are closed immediately below an open tonehole which are more effective in the upper and altissimo registers.
Why clarinets behave like this is probably unique to them as oboes fitted with full Gillet conservatoire system can utilise the special diminished ventings for certain notes in both registers with them both in tune in both registers. But even German and Oehler system clarinets with all their vent keys and special mechanisms still can't use some forked fingerings in the lower register - while a fantastic high Bb and C can be played with forked and cross fingerings (xox|ooo for Bb and oxo|xxx for C), they don't work as Eb and F in the lower register as they're too sharp.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-03-24 06:57
I don't have the same problem, or it is much less pronounced, on my Arioso. And these are theoretically identical or very similar acoustic designs. I'm hoping I can make this horn tune like its sibling. Even if I don't, I will have learned something. I can always ask a tech to have a look.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-03-24 07:54
I think whatever makes the Arioso "work" could be a PROBLEM with the Arioso !!!! No clarinet other clarinet I have heard of "works" that way.
I discovered this fact on the German system clarinet first. A perfectly good Bb (first ledger above the staff) on the German horn is first and third fingers of the left hand. Once I learned this I wanted so badly for it to work for the 12th below, but it does not !!! It is far too sharp (same problem we face with the "1 and 1" Bb).
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-03-24 08:31
The only clarinets the forked fingering for Eb (xox|ooo) will work on are those fitted with the top joint forked Eb/Bb mechanism as the forked Eb on these has become a keyed fingering as opposed to a forked fingering and is correctly compensated to work just as effectively and in tune in both registers. Without the small vent key connected to the LH2 ring to compensate for the closure of LH3, this note will be too flat in both registers.
You can get forked Eb and Bb with this fingering on Leblanc and Yamaha alto clarinets as LH3 closes the E/B vent key, but it will be flat owing to the fact neither have the vent key connected to LH2. Opening the C#/G# key makes it too sharp. It may not be difficult to fit the vent key to make full use of a forked Eb and Bb on these alto clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-03-26 05:09
OK, I examined the LH oxo hole (which is what tunes forked Eb) on both my clarinets, and I saw that on my backup, the inner part of the hole had a step and a larger diameter (not sure why not continuous material all the way through). On my Arioso primary, can't tell whether 1 or 2 pieces of material, but the diameter is continuous all the way through. And I'm thinking it should have been that way on the backup also. Or at least, the larger diameter is responsible in some part for the excessive sharpness of forked Eb4.
I know photos would help this explanation a lot, and I'm a photographer, but it would be so much trouble... LOL.
So, I added a little bit of Marine Goop to fill in the gap. (My favorite glue and repair filler, because it's permanent when I want it to be, but is easily removed a day or a decade later with no harm done.) And today I was pretty sure forked Eb4 was better. Not perfect, better. Too much of a change to be just a placebo effect.
And I did retest my Arioso, and rethink all your comments about how forked Eb4 is not SUPPOSED to be in tune, really. And it's true, even on the Arioso it is sharp. And when I play it that way I have to lip it quickly down, automatic by now. However, my backup horn was way too far that way, as I called it- painful, and now it's not- the 2 horns are closer to the same behavior even if not identical. And the upper forked Bb seems OK on both.
Which leads me to a related question / observation. Of late I've begun to notice the places I was using side or sliver keys for Eb4 where forked was easier, and have been working to use forked instead. (That was before this whole discussion.) Bad idea? Some of the notes are quite sustained. I think I'm playing them in tune, though.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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