 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-04-21 20:44
OK, I was thinking to myself today about perfect pitch and I came up with some questions:
1. What is perfect pitch tuned to? 440,442, etc?
2. Could different people's perfect pitch be different than someone elses? Say someone in the US has perfect pitch to 440 and someone in Europe has perfect pitch to 442? Does this vary by person, or country, or area, or is perfect pitch universally all matched to the same (hertz?)?
3. If someone has perfect pitch in the US (440), but then they travel to Europe (442), would they have to force themselves to sing sharper? Is this possible for them to do?
4. Now if everyone with perfect pitch all universally were in sync with each other, then why wouldn't the whole world all tune to say 442 or whichever it is?
I'm just really curious about the phenomena of perfect pitch. All insights are most welcome! Have a great day!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-04-21 21:20
Perfect pitch isn't "tuned" to anything. There is nothing magical about A=440 or A=442, or any other pitch standard. (Some people will tell you that there IS something special about C=256, but they are, to put it politely, complete morons.)
Perfect pitch means the ability to identify and reproduce any given *frequency* on request. I'll say that again. Any given *frequency*. Not any given note name. If you ask someone with perfect pitch to sing an A, they'll sing an A in whatever pitch standard they are most used to. But if you specify that you want it in another pitch standard, they'll be able to do that too. Exactly how accurate they'll be depends on exactly how perfect their pitch sense is.
It is worth bearing in mind that, while we may get upset about having to deal with varying pitch standards (440, 442) in the modern world, it was much worse in olden times. Pitch varied a lot from one place to another, even from one group to another in the same place. You can be sure that people with perfect pitch were perfectly well able to deal with this.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2006-04-21 22:28
This URL written by a psycoacoustic researcher of the Technical University of Munchen says that even some birds or frogs(!!! ) have absolute pitch senses or that Gerald Moore trained off his AP sense, which was an obstacle for him to transpose on piano.
http://www.mmk.ei.tum.de/persons/ter/top/absolute.html
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rgames
Date: 2006-04-22 03:05
"Perfect" pitch is really just a form of memory. A=440 Hz is one standard, as is A=442 Hz, but that's just a baseline. What type of temperament is "perfect" pitch tuned to? Equal? Just? The answer, of course, is that it's not tied to any one baseline or any one temperament, it's an ability to "remember" a particular pitch without regard to a given reference. The notion that it's tied to a particular collection of standards used in Western music is misguided: why would an innate human ability be tied to one particular cultural definition?
I think colors are a good analogy: most people can pick out red vs. green vs. blue etc. just as most musicians can pick out the general range of a given tone (e.g. sop/alt/tenor/bass). But show them a very specific hue of red and ask them to recall it days later from a collection of very close hues and most will not be able to. Remembering pitch works the same way: everybody can do it to some degree but there are some with highly developed pitch memory who can do it to a finer level of detail.
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-22 04:07
I heard an interesting (and perhaps apocryphal) story of an excellent oboe student who had perfect pitch but it was tuned too sharp....It drove her nuts and she eventually quit playing.
-Randy Foster
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Markael
Date: 2006-04-22 13:14
Perfect pitch is one of those abilities that makes more demands on other abilities.
I think that having perfect pitch would be a curse for someone playing a transposing instrument, unless:
Could some people have the ability to juxtapose two different musical ideas in their head at the same time? Those of us who sometimes transpose do this to a limited extent, reading a Bb and playing what we call a C, for instance. Someone with perfect pitch would have to do this constantly.
I once worked for a time in a psychiatric hospital, where one particular doctor had the ability to do two things at once. I asked him a question about a patient. As I talked, he continued to write in a chart. My first impression was that he was being rude, but he did hear every word I said and he responded accordingly.
Back to the original discussion: Recognizing not only absolute pitch, but also subtle variations in standard tuning, would not only require perfect pitch, but also it would demand some kind of mental “bookmarking.”
The point is easy to illustrate for those of us who have good relative pitch. Play the dueling banjos game. I play a melody; you repeat it. At first it is easy. But as the tempo and the number of notes increases, you just can’t keep up.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John25
Date: 2006-04-23 14:20
I agree that for most people who have "perfect pitch" it is really memory of notes heard (that how my "perfect pitch" works, anyway!). I can name notes when I hear them, but I couldn't possibly differentiate between A=440 and A=442. Probably some exceptional people can.
I once read that the memory of "perfect pitch" goes sharper as you get older. Can anyone substantiate this?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GoatTnder
Date: 2006-04-23 19:24
In regards to transposing instruments, I have heard that singers with perfect pitch often have worlds of trouble transposing songs. So there is definitely a situation where relative pitch is superior...
Andres Cabrera
South Bay Wind Ensemble
www.SouthBayWinds.com
sbwe@sbmusic.org
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-23 22:31
I guess a pitch pipe is still an essential tool in a vocal group?
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2006-04-24 00:29
Transposing does present interesting issues for perfect pitch. I started out on piano and my teacher and I realized I had perfect pitch before I started playing the clarinet. In my teens I would occasionally hear a Bb and identify it as a C if I didn't pause for a moment to think what the pitch name should be for piano.
Also, when I was in college and was singing for the director of the women's chorus, she put music in front of me and then proceeded to play the intro in another key. That made me pause! However, I explained why. Later on she ended up putting me on 2nd soprano on a two-on-a-part soli since I could hear the inner voice.
It also helps in church choir. There is a certain piece that for some reason we sometimes sing in G and sometimes sing in A. I have no idea why. It sure helps to know what note I need to start on if we sing it in one key the one week and the other key the next.
Mostly I consider it a quirk of the brain that has a marginal effect on musicmaking.
Barb
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Markael
Date: 2006-04-24 01:42
Bob Draznik asked, "I guess a pitch pipe is still an essential tool in a vocal group?"
That brings up another point.
Barbershop singers try to sing in pure intervals, that is, not tempered. Pure intervals produce more overtones and ringing chords. So the center of pitch is constantly shifting.
I don't know what it is like to have perfect pitch, but I suspect that it might be a disadvantage in barbershop. (As compared to good relative pitch, that is. Any sense of accurate pitch is preferable to a tin ear.)
In all true performance settings a person with perfect pitch would have to adjust, for instance to whatever A is on the piano, or to what everyone agrees to as Do. But, in barbershop singing, the contract constantly changes based on the root of the [major] chord that is being sung. A person with perfect pitch might have diffuculty with the slight but constant changes that would have to be made.
I'll stop here and resist the temptation to pontificate about chord structure.
Post Edited (2006-04-25 16:57)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-04-24 01:47
All I know is that there is a girl at my high school who has perfect pitch and can tell us how sharp or flat we are. Like she'll be like "a little lower" when we sing or play a pitch. She's also a great violinist and singer. It makes me wonder.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jim S.
Date: 2006-04-24 15:52
I would like to hear what those with perfect pitch say to Markael's remarks about barbershop singing. The only thing unique about barbershop singing is that it uses complex chords and has a tradition of very high standards regarding the accuracy and resonance of their sound. These high standards apply to any ensemble playing, but are especially demanding in choral singing I believe, and more evident when they are not met because of the particular characteristic of the human voice, and especialyy evident when vibrato is not used.
How do those with so called perfect pitch adapt to a system of tuning that does not adhere to a fixed system of note pitches, but rather is based on the harmonic series of the root of each cord. This system, which proves to produce the sound that modern and very competitive choral performance demands, defies any notion of "perfect" pitch based on fixed note values. The adjustments are slight, but very real, and differ from any system of temperament, viz. Gerald Eskelin.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-04-24 17:56
I can't think of any advantage of having perfect pitch + excellent relative hearing over just excellent relative hearing, other than in improvised music (which I play a lot) when you can do exactly what you want on you first note. I need to play one note to have some orientation.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-04-24 20:58
A major plus to perfect pitch is that vocal sightreading is very easy. It's way easier to make select choirs when you are a great sightreader.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2006-04-24 23:32
When I went to an amateur chorus concert without any accompaniment of a piano or orchestra, I found at first they are in tune by the conductor's pitch pipe but as they sing and sing the balance of each singer's voice got worse and worse. It was like a mental torture.
Even when I hear a chorus sung by a semi-amateur group of Indiana university, which I now listen to on WFIU, I recognize singers especially female singers rather conspicuously out of tune. The situation goes much worse when they sing dissonant chords. Even dissonant chords should have their own dissonantness.
BTW. Vienna boy choir sounds lovely to my ears but Japanese children choirs do not. Someone said it's because the former is tuned to just tone, whereas the latter to equal-temper,i.e. on the piano scale. This is another matter.
Post Edited (2006-04-24 23:35)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rgames
Date: 2006-04-24 23:43
Gerald Eskelin asked "How do those with so called perfect pitch adapt to a system of tuning that does not adhere to a fixed system of note pitches, but rather is based on the harmonic series of the root of each cord."
Again, perfect pitch is not an absolute. Rather, it is an ability to remember a particular pitch. That doesn't mean you're forced to produce a pitch with reference to a certain baseline and temperament and can't adapt to different standards (e.g. fit within a chord). It just means that you're able to identify the fact that it's different from whatever that standard is. People with "perfect" pitch can function just fine in any temperament or with reference to any tuning standard.
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-04-25 04:57
I know many people without perfect pitch who can sing in tune. Even singing solo they can stay in tune for a really long time.
One former teacher of mine (he teaches how to develop your musical hearing) has perfect pitch. He said he had to play a solo piano concert and the piano, although was in tune with itself, was really out of tune (very sharp or flat). He said it was very difficult for him to play. He said the only advantage to perfect pitch is when you are a kind and all the grandmothers play a note and you know what it is and they are so happy 
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2006-04-25 11:38
This may be an off-center topic. I have just recognized that good 'messa di voce' (basic technique of Bel Canto) is now hardly heard even in professional singers, which may be the reason why I feel somewhat strange hearing them sing.
http://www.scena.org/lsm/sm4-4/sm4-4MessaDiVoce.html
p.s.
At HOME page of the above URL, articles or volumes of Le Scena Musicale(The Musical Scene) are downloadable. They may be in French.
Post Edited (2006-04-25 11:58)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
