 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-04-23 11:27
I had been under the impression that no original basset clarinet has survived.
Tony Pay wrote on this subject in a thread last June:
"The other instruments you see on the stage tonight are either original instruments, or copies of original instruments.
"But what I'm playing tonight is different again: it's a copy of an instrument that doesn't exist.."
(Tony Pay, Lyons, 1985, to much French laughter. But I was also saying it in French, so perhaps they were laughing at that:-)
But Tony's own 1984 LP recording of this piece has sleeve notes by Nicholas Shackleton that say:
Unfortunately, although a handful of early basset clarinets or related instruments have been located in recent years, none of them really gives any clues regarding Stadler's own instrument, since they are either too primitive or else of a much later period.
Does anyone know what Shackleton was referring to? He is no longer with us to answer the question. Maybe Tony can help?
P.S. The same sleeve notes contain a large picture of Tony playing a left-handed basset clarinet. Unfortunately, he is also wearing a left-handed shirt, which rather gives the game away.
P.P.S. If anyone responds to this by writing about modern basset horns, I shall scream.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2006-04-23 17:30
"If anyone responds to this by writing about modern basset horns, I shall scream."
I just sold my MODERN Basset Horn to a collector in California, Yeah...!
I don't hear the scream, David...
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-04-23 20:09
David Peacham wrote:
>> Tony Pay wrote:
"But what I'm playing tonight is different again: it's a copy of an instrument that doesn't exist.."
(Tony Pay, Lyons, 1985, to much French laughter. But I was also saying it in French, so perhaps they were laughing at that:-)
>> But Tony's own 1984 LP recording of this piece has sleeve notes by Nicholas Shackleton that say:
Unfortunately, although a handful of early basset clarinets or related instruments have been located in recent years, none of them really gives any clues regarding Stadler's own instrument, since they are either too primitive or else of a much later period.
>> Does anyone know what Shackleton was referring to? He is no longer with us to answer the question. Maybe Tony can help?>>
I don't think these two quotes are inconsistent. There are examples of instruments that might be thought to be basset clarinets -- remember that a 'basset clarinet' is just a low-C instrument at a higher pitch than a 'bassethorn' in F or G -- but it remains true that they give us not much idea of what Stadler's instrument might have been.
Pamela Poulin's work, which post-dates my recording, does give us some idea, and certainly means that the instrument I used wasn't like Stadler's in detail.
However, that doesn't worry me too much. I could have another instrument made with the requisite spherical bell, but my judgement is that it doesn't make enough difference to the sound to justify the effort.
Tony
Post Edited (2006-04-24 06:42)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-04-23 20:32
Attachment: Stadlers_clarinet.GIF (44k)
>> Pamela Poulin's work, which post-dates my recording, does give us some idea, and certainly means that the instrument I used wasn't like Stadler's in detail.>>
See attachment.
Post Edited (2006-04-24 06:41)
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-04-23 20:34
John - I am, however, entirely confident that you know the difference, and are only winding me up.
Tony - I agree that the quotes aren't inconsistent, but Shackleton's comments surprised me nonetheless, because I'd been under the impression that the basset clarinet was a short-lived experiment by Stadler, whereas Shackleton seems to be saying that the instrument had immediate forebears and also - more surprising still - immediate descendents. Shackleton's comments clearly predate Poulin's work.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2006-04-23 20:47
Yes, David, I do know the difference...unfortunately, and was, in fact pulling your leg. I just thought it such a funny PPS, that I had to respond...joke...!
"P.P.S. If anyone responds to this by writing about modern basset horns, I shall scream."
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-04-23 22:52
David, if you own a copy of Colin Lawson's book: "Mozart Clarinet Concerto" you'll find on p.46 a basset clarinet in C made by J. B. Eisenbrandt. It was supposedly made after 1800. It has a similar bulbous bell as found on the drawing discovered by Pamela Poulin. This type of bell was also used on the early “clarinetto d’amore”. The clarinetto d’amore had a range to low E as regular clarinets and was made in various pitches like F, G or A and had this characteristic bulbous bell. The only reason we call it a basset (it: basetto = small bass) clarinet is because of the extension to low C.
“none of them really gives any clues regarding Stadler's own instrument, since they are either too primitive or else of a much later period.”
True, so far, since they are all diatonic from low E to C. Stadler/Lutz are probably the ones responsible for putting the Eb and Db keys in place to make it fully chromatic. Otherwise it would be impossible to play the Mozart concerto.
Alphie
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-04-24 01:32
Can we discuss post-modern basset horns without screaming?
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2006-04-25 23:39
Can it be assumed from the picture of Stadler's instrument that he played with the reed on top?
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-04-26 00:02
DAVE wrote:
>> Can it be assumed from the picture of Stadler's instrument that he played with the reed on top?>>
Well, can it?-)
Tony
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2006-04-26 01:00
OK.... Well maybe I should have asked DID he play with the reed on top??
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-26 02:09
From what I understand...in that day the double-lipped embouchure was in vogue so the position of the reed was more a matter of preference.
-Randy
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-04-26 12:09
DAVE wrote:
>> OK.... Well maybe I should have asked DID he play with the reed on top??>>
I think the answer has to be that we don't really know, but that probably he had the reed on the bottom.
For more details on what is known about the reed-uppermost technique, you can consult:
http://www.clarinet-saxophone.asn.au/articles/reed-above.pdf
...though in my opinion the claims there made for the technique's superiority in music that involves virtuoso changes of register (with reference to Cavallini in particular) should be taken with a large pinch of salt.
Tony
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-04-26 16:57
Surely the evidence suggests that he played reed down. Stadler was said to have been able to imitate the human voice, it's very difficult to do so with the reed up on both a modern and period instrument in my experience. Most of the tutors suggest reed down, well the fascimile of the ones I have do and there dated between 1780 and 1804.
It's a very interesting topic though.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-04-26 20:16
cigleris wrote:
>> Stadler was said to have been able to imitate the human voice, it's very difficult to do so with the reed up on both a modern and period instrument in my experience.>>
Clearly what any reed-down player can currently do is very little indication of what may be possible with reed-up after a lengthy period of practice.
There is a reed-up Italian player who still plays the clarinet very well.
That doesn't mean that I think learning to play reed-up would be a worthwhile endeavour for anyone -- particularly for me, since I have a too-short upper lip even for double lip embouchure with the reed down.
Tony
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-04-26 22:43
your absolutely right Tony, anything can be achieved if alot of attention and practice was done. Are there any benefits for playing reed-up? Once players in the 18th Century started playing reed-down did this not become common practice almost straight away around Europe? And was this the case for England? As we know the English were behind the Europeans in clarinet development. Did players such as Hook and Mahon play reed-up?
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-04-27 11:46
The Turner Classic Movies cable TV channel sometimes runs old newsreel footage of vintage music performances as filler between movies. Thse clips are one reel or less (10 minutes or shorter). Judging from the number of times I've spotted big band clarinet players playing reed-up in clips from the 1930s and 1940s, I think the technique must have been fairly common in the USA during the early to mid twentieth century, at least among dance band, jazz and studio musicians (some of whom were not classically trained). I don't know the identity of any of these players. Typically only the conductor, the band and occasionally a big-name soloist get screen credits in movies from that era. I wonder if the jazz musicians of the age may have been carrying on older traditions that classical teachers had abandoned by then. Anyway, old jazz film is a good place to see this technique in action. I think some of the segments of Ken Burns's 10-part PBS series, "JAZZ," also show clarinet players reed-up, although offhand I can't recall where.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: nes
Date: 2006-04-27 15:46
How many basset clarinets are around the world today?
Thanks
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Author: Merlin
Date: 2006-04-27 16:01
I have a basset clarinet here in the store right now...so that's one.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-04-27 16:10
Bob Phillips wrote:
>> how does one tongue with the mpc upside down?>>
You mean, to be politically correct, 'with the reed uppermost'?-)
I imagine with a little more the underside of the tip of the tongue.
I often do that anyway, especially in the high register, so it doesn't feel all that strange to me. (Certainly not as strange as the embouchure.)
Tony
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-04-27 16:22
I own a modern basset clarinet in A, so there is another. I don't think there are many in the UK, could be wrong though.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Al Amir
Date: 2006-04-28 14:40
I would like to say something on the term basset clarinet.
The term basset ( if it comes from the Italian bassetto) means cello.
Basset horn (corno di bassetto in it.) means horn in the cello register. That make sense.
But basset clarinet is a nonsense term: clarinets don't sound in the cello register. They might have a low C extention, that's probably the right term.
By the way, you can have a low C extention for your B flat or A clarinet.
There are some good craftsman doing them.
If you have a full boehm clarinet (with low E flat key) you need only a piece of shaped pipe to add: you loose the low E flat, but you can have a low C, much more useful.
Al
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-04-28 15:46
Al Amir wrote:
>> I would like to say something on the term basset clarinet....basset clarinet is a nonsense term: clarinets don't sound in the cello register. They might have a low C extention, that's probably the right term.>>
Well, I'm sorry, but even if you're right that bassetto means 'cello unequivocally -- which I doubt -- and regardless of what you would like it to be called, the instrument is actually called a basset clarinet.
It's too late to argue.
Anyway, you might as well complain about some other language extensions, saying that a violone (big viola, aka double bass) isn't a big viola, because it doesn't play in the viola register, and a violoncello (a little big viola) doesn't play in the register of a violone. Languages don't grow logically.
>> By the way, you can have a low C extention for your B flat or A clarinet. There are some good craftsman doing them.>>
Yes.
>> If you have a full boehm clarinet (with low E flat key) you need only a piece of shaped pipe to add: you loose the low E flat, but you can have a low C, much more useful.>>
I don't know quite what you mean by this. You need at least a low D as well to play any of the music written for basset clarinet, and a low C# and D# to play the Mozart concerto. And that's for an instrument pitched in A, and you don't see many full Boehm As around.
So it would be useful for the odd low C if you were improvising, but not for much else.
Tony
Post Edited (2006-04-28 17:08)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-04-28 18:39
Al Amir wrote:
"The term basset (if it comes from the Italian bassetto) means cello.
Basset horn (corno di bassetto in it.) means horn in the cello register".
Since you are in Italy I won’t argue with you but “bassetto is also the diminutive form of “basso”, small bass and that will go for a cello as well I guess because that’s exactly what it is. This term will be appropriate also for a basset horn as you correctly point out since it covers all the ledger lines of the bass clef. For the basset clarinet it’s not a very correct term even if it has been around for a long time. Of cause it only refers to the similar extension as of the basset horn just to separate the two. Maybe “clarinetto poco basso” would be more correct.
Alphie
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-04-28 19:53
Alphie wrote:
>> Since you are in Italy I won’t argue with you ..
...but I will...
>> but “bassetto is also the diminutive form of “basso”, small bass and that will go for a cello as well I guess because that’s exactly what it is.>>
But 'basso' is not 'just' a string bass in Italian. So 'bassetto' is not 'just' a 'cello in Italian either.
Anyhow, who cares? It's a basset clarinet almost everywhere -- well, except in his mind.
Tony
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Author: Al Amir
Date: 2006-05-01 16:37
Thanks for getting interest in my query. I don't know German significance of bassett . I can't find it on my German dictionary. Would be interesting to know.
I can't even say the right English significance of the word basset, not beening my first language.
What I can say that in Italian means cello (instrument and register) and nothing else. The other term we use is "bassotto" (similar to basset) , that means small bass. A short dog is called bassotto. A short man is called bassotto. Not bassetto, that sound like a musical term.
The fact I wanted to mention is that "basset" for a clarinet is probably coming from the basset horn term with a different sense.
I can't find the term basset clarinet in the past. But defintly the term is in use now, all important clarinet builders have a basset clarinet in their production.
The low C extention for B flat clarinets is useful if you would like to play Rolla concert for istance, in this case you need only the low C. But with a more complex low joint it is possible to trasform your clarinet in "basset clarinet" . Not to play K662 concert at La Scala (the famous thatre in Milan!), of course but playing nice duets or trios with friends.
Al
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2006-05-02 05:52
Thanks for explaining guys. I always had an image of a dog with bloodshot droopy eyes holding an instrument. Good to be put right.
Chris.
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