 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2006-04-18 16:20
We (a group of fanatic amateurs) are about to start peparing this beatiful piece of work, but problem number 1 is : how so sit ? who sits where under 'normal conditions' ? (1 fl, 2ob,2cl,2bs,2hrn)
We have the same discussion in our regular wind quintet where for the moment we sit (half circle, left to right facing audience) : clarinet (me),bassoon, horn, oboe, flute.
just noticed the 'funny' sequence in this sites logo (in same facing : flute, clarinet, horn, oboe, bassoon) or is this normal ?.
Post Edited (2006-04-18 16:43)
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-04-18 16:50
Hey, my group of fanatic amateurs (and a couple of tolerant pros) will be playing the Gounod on Sunday.
Last time we played with this combination (an arrangement of Mendelssohn's Op. 61 Sommernachtstraum incidental music and his Nocturno) we sat like this (it should look like a horse shoe, with the horns at the apex - may not translate in plain text; in other words, the horns should be side by side facing forward; the rest face inwards):
h h
o b
o b
f c
x c
h=horn
o=oboe
b=bassoon
f=flute
c=clarinet
[x is a space]
we also had a double bass player who stood either behind the clarinets or in the gap between flute and first clarinet.
Here's another question: we like to play with a double bass, and on many harmonie pieces without bass or contra bassoon parts we simply have the bass double the second bassoon parts. It adds great depth and is historically approprate.
What do we do on late 19th century pieces that were clearly not intended to have a bass part (such as the Gounod)? Would it be acceptable for the bass to double the 2nd bassoon on the Petite Symphonie (as well as the Gouvy Suite Gauloise)?
Post Edited (2006-04-18 16:53)
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2006-04-18 20:05
Contrarian view: I always found this work rather insipid! Only part I really like is where Gounod quotes the "dogfight" from Sousa's "Thunderer" in the Finale intro.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-04-18 20:11
In our ww5, we sit with the clarinet and flute facing each other closest to the front of the stage. The oboe is alongside the flute, and the horn is alongside the clarinet. The bassoon sits facing the audience (oh, his antics) between the oboe and horn and furthest from the front of the stage. We have the flute on the left when looking at the group from the audience:
Fl Ob Bsn Hn Cl
We chose this lay out because it seems to make it easier to hear each others parts --not to project the sounds in any particular way.
My first thought is to simply double up "our" layout.
FlFl ObOb Bsn Bsn HnHn ClCl
Have a great performance.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2006-04-18 22:50
The last time I saw it performed, I think they sat like this:
horn horn bassoon bassoon
flute clarinet clarinet oboe oboe
The pairs of clarinets and oboes may have been reversed.
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2006-04-19 01:03
According to my score, which was edited by Fennell, the suggested seating is as follows:
2nd row- Bsn2 Bsn1 Bass Horn1 Horn2
1st row- Clar.2 Clar.1 Flute Oboe1 Oboe2
These are set up in a slight arc
Post Edited (2006-04-19 01:06)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-04-19 17:19
When my professional octet (Octanphonie) do it we sit the standard way, the way an octet sits with the flute on the end next to the 1st oboe.
So
flt
ob1
ob2
hrn2
hrn1
fg1
fg2
clt2
cl1
with me facing the flute
There is no bass part for this piece.
London Winds also sit this way.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-04-19 17:50
Peter,
would a bass be inappropriate (doubling 2nd bassoon)?
there's no bass part for many Harmonie works, but they sure sound good with the extra bottom. Even the Mozart Serenades benefit from it.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-04-19 21:55
Larryb, for the Gounod i think so as this piece is thickly scored, it's hard enough to hear the flute without adding more instruments.
With regard to the use of the bass. It really depends, use it when required ie Hummel, Krommer etc but regard the Mozart Serenades, meaning the Eb and C minor, most certainly not. The use of a double bass is grounded in the Bohemian tradition and not in Vennia. Harmonie music that has a seperate bass part is most likely to come from the Bohemian area. The Mozart serenades with the exception of the '13 winds' really should be played as written. As wind music became increasingly popular into the early 19th C we see that composers are specifically writing for the lower end, this is due the use of the contra bassoon within the orchestra and the use of other popular instruments such as the serpent and opheiclde. The Nocturne by Mendelsshon shows use that. The score states the use of any bass instrument.
When we talk about Harmonie we need to remember that the music these groups played were the arrangements of the popular operas, I think here the use of a 16 foot bass is permitted because of the 'orchestral' effect that is achieved.
In my experience playing this music on both modern and period instruments the 'rules' can be bended a little, say for example in the arrangment of Beethoven's 1st Symphony, my group used a bass because the rest of the concert had double bass parts.
I'm sorry for the lecture but I generally think that double bass usage should be used in the right context, and when the parts are specifically written for the use of double bass or, lets not forget contra bassoon. Double bass sounds better though.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-04-20 01:08
Thanks, Peter - that's good advice
Our group uses bass on most everything because we have one, and he's a good guy, so we want him to play. It sounds good. We play alot of the opera harmonie arrangements - and of course the Bohemian stuff.
I'd probably prefer the Mozart Eb and c minor without bass, but it's fun with it too. I can see how it wouldn't work with the Gounod. Luckily, Dvorak kept it in his Serenade.
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2006-04-20 19:53
He, thanks,
lots of input,
we'll have a look at it.
My personal favourite : Peter Cigleris' Octet+ flute seatting, but I'm not the only one to decide ;-)
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