 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2006-04-12 21:04
I have been curious about this clarinet for awhile and contemplating on getting a new clarinet. I have what people might think is a good clarinet - Selmer Signature - but I have never been real happy with it. Truthfully, I think I went a bit over my head with this horn. I would like something with a little less resistence and something I will beable to achieve good intonation on.
over the past 3-4 years that i have had the selmer, i have tried various things to correct an intonation problem for which i am told is "me", and i am tired of trying but i care how i sound so thought ....(i would have better luck with something not as professional?)
I am wondering if the forte clarinet is taking more than a step down? I play in a very good community wind symphony of about 60 members. I have been with this group for about 8 years and plan to continue. It seems when I was in highschool and had a cheap vito it sounded better - or - i just was not in tune with what it sounded like.
any comments on the forte being an appropriate horn or other suggestions would be appreciated.
thanks, jan
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2006-04-12 21:30
Does your signature need an overhaul, I think it should definitely play better than a student Vito?
This does seem seems odd... perhaps you should try some new mouthpiece/ligature/reed combinations before buying a new horn. When you say the problem is "me", what do you mean? I assume that it would be an enbouchure issue... but it could even be as simple as the angle at which you are holding the instruments.
What is your complete set-up?
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2006-04-12 21:44
i have tried different mouthpieces, different reeds, different reed strengths, tighter embouchure to no avail and became convinced it was the horn in which i had brannenized 3 years ago. when i went to the college clarinet/flute teacher for advice - he said it was me and the position of my tongue - which was hard for him to explain since we cant see inside the mouth when playing. as it turns out, it was during the winter and he had a space heater on and it brought the pitch up.
btw - the problem notes are high D, E, F, G above the staff and every time we have those notes in wind symphony the conductor notes the pitch is low. (and throat A is flat although i can usually do an alternate fingering on that one).
ive been working to bring the pitch up and thought if i had something not so "professional" i might be better in tune.
oh my set up -
selmer signature
vandoren 5Rvlyre
3 vandoren v12 reeds (i have tried for years to play 3.5 and they are just too strong)
luyben lig
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2006-04-12 21:45
ps...does it need an overhaul? its only 4 years old and i had it in 2 years ago to the brannens for a "checkup"
when do instruments need an overhaul?
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-12 22:04
When overhauls need to be done depends a lot on the instrument. I did the last overhaul on my instrument (I use to do instrument repair as well as play for the Navy) over ten years ago. Since I used cork pads, which stay resilient for a lot longer, I've been able to avoid doing much of anything save occasional replacement of the bottom four pads (they're bladder pads). I used excellent quality materials and nobody blamed me for taking a little extra time to get it "just so".
If the keywork is lose or seems to be losing its springiness or you see excess rust on the needle springs its about time to take it in for a good work-over. Choose your repair person carefully. Changing out pads is pretty easy and doing springs isn't difficult, but it takes a fine touch to properly swedge and regulate keys.
-Randy
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Author: D
Date: 2006-04-12 22:12
If there are other clarinet players in your band who you get on with, could you ask if you could try playing each of their instruments. If you have problems with the same notes then it might be you, but if you don't then your equipment and you may just not be compatible.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2006-04-12 22:20
since i have been thru the rigors of trying to fix the problem, have asked here in the past, have sought advice from teachers/conductors, have tried many things for many years etc... lets assume it is me - lets just say beause i have tried almost everything (short of having an overhaul and since i also use cork pads and the clarinet is 4 years old, mechanisms work fine - i dont think it needs one)...
my questions are...
is the forte clarinet appropriate for an advanced player, or is this just an extremely well-made clarinet for the beginner?
assuming it is me playing a clarinet that is too much for me - would something less professional be more compatible?
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-04-13 01:19
JanLynn,
I just had David Spiegelthal wave his magic wand over my Buffet. He reduced its pitch errors from huge to easily manageable. He did a wizard job, was quick to return the horn, and much cheaper than any new clarinet.
That's dspieg@earthlink.net
Bob Phillips
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2006-04-13 01:26
thanks bob... i am considering it. i was convinced it was the horn until the clarinet teacher said it was me - then i was convinced it was me. now, im not sure again. guess the only way to find out is to have a tech look at it.
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2006-04-13 02:17
janlynn:
Have other accomplished players tried your horn? If so, have they had similar problems?
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2006-04-13 02:38
the day i saw the college clarinet teacher, he played it and didnt have a problem. however, there was a space heater in the room and at that time, i didnt have a problem either. i assume, the heat brought the pitch up.
he had me play a high C and when he heard that ..little noise just before the note comes out he said it was a problem of tongue position and when i could play the higher notes without that little pre-sound, then i would have the right position for getting those high notes in tune.
i have worked on it, but truthfully, that little pre-sound is very subtle and even making adjustments the pitch isnt going up.
its very frustrating becuz its not like im a beginner or developing my embouchure. ive been playing for like 18 years now. granted not consecutively.
i used a vito 4th - 12th grade and then a buffet R13 after that for 2 years. then, after not playing for 12 years i started again. when i got very serious about it, i got my signature. i guess one thing to consider is that i have also grown as a musician and care about intonation now - where before i was just trying to get through the notes/rhythm/dynamics. i was probably oblivious to tone. now that i dont have to think of other things so much - for the last few years the intonation and how i blend with my clarinet mates has become important. its even harder when there is only 3 clarinets in my section and one of us is out and 2 play together -well, you know how that goes - unless you are really in tune with each other it can sound really bad! this was the case this week and i really want to get this solved - even if i have to buy a new clarinet.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2006-04-13 12:40
ok - aside from intonation problems and all that jazz -
could someone please tell me what they think about the forte clarinet - thats what i really wanted to know.
thanks, jan
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Author: SolidRockMan
Date: 2006-04-13 13:15
I bought a Forte' recently and am very happy with it - however I have not been playing clarinet for nearly as long as you, and I play in a less formal musical group.
I find the intonation, response and overall 'feel' of the Forte' to be way superior to the Buffet B12 I had been playing. The Forte' package is excellent value and dealing with Omar Henderson is a pleasure.
I think others on the bboard may use a Forte' for professional work outdoors...
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-04-13 13:43
Janlynn --
What clarinets (make, model) are the others in your section playing? Are you on the same part, or each on a separate part?
I know I could tell the difference when any of the three in my section (same part) used an instrument of a different make. With all of us on R-13s, the blend was superior. When one of us used her Opus, or when one of us used a Bundy for a week while her R-13 was in repair, it was a struggle for us to sound as one voice.
I'm sure the Forte is a really fine clarinet (GAS prompts me to wish I had one), but if I were considering the purchase of a new instrument just to solve section problems, I would consider what the section majority is using.
Susan
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-04-13 14:06
Janlynn,
The Forte has been extensively reviewed on this board. You might do a search for it and read what many bboarders (myself included) have said about it. This is a great little instrument if you're wanting a non-wood clarinet. I have used one for back up and outdoor work, but use my Leblanc Opus II for my indoor concert work.
The Forte has excellent intonation and workmanship--and since you're frequenting the bboard, you might get Dr. Henderson himself to hand-select one for you. Send him an email and ask. He's a sponsor of this board.
As for your Selmer Signature, there has been discussion on that particular instrument on this board as well--so another search might be in order. I have play-tested about 6 of these instruments and found them "stuffy" and I didn't like the tone. I had great difficulty getting much volume out of them.
I personally recommend the Leblanc pro-level instruments and also the standard Buffet R-13s for good results.
Also, have you looked at your mouthpiece/reed set-up? You might be needing a change there.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-04-13 15:22
Attachment: Spiegentha Tuning.jpg (140k)
Janlynn,
I'm enclosing another copy of the before/after tuning chart I made for my Buffet R16-1/2. "Before" means before Dave Spiegelthal worked over, and after means what it plays like now that Dave had "tuned" it.
"Before" the altissimo was a nightmare. Now, its useful, much better in-tune, and I don't have to struggle so much to make those notes (or any others) "fit" with those that come before and after.
To get these data, I played one note (say, middle C) and got it in-tune with my little $25 Korg tuner. Then, I played another note just as I would going from middle C (making big jumps sometimes). I wrote down the tuning error on the second note.
I repeated these middle-C to another note until I had covered all of the notes on my horn --including some alternate fingerings (some of which I never/seldom use, like the 1-1 bottom line Eb). When all was recorded, I put the numbers in my spread sheet and made the graphs. It takes a while to get it all together, but it gives a good picture of your horn (with you and your mpc and barrel included).
My teacher has some things to say about getting notes in tune including throat, tongue, cheeks, lips; but your experience with the college dude seems neither productive nor pleasant. I'm skeptical of the hypothesis that "its you" making bad notes on your horn.
Sorry, but I have no Forte experience (except that Performance Bicycle's house brand stuff are also called "forte"). My push here is to check out the possibilities of fixing your Signature before surrendering to another instrument.
In my case, I walked into a music shop ca 1961 in Sacramento California and said, "I want a full Boehm Buffet." They accommodated me, ordered the horn; and I started playing on it. Its mechanisms were so fast compared to my student clarinet that it was instant love. Only later, did I realize that the horn was stuffy and terribly out of tune. Not a good result for what was then a pretty expensive tool. Boofy is not perfect, but I'll live with her until I can someday wade into a quiet warehouse knee deep in pro horns with a box of reeds and my favorite mouthpiece.
Bob Phillips
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-04-13 16:20
Bob Phillips wrote:
> JanLynn,
>
> I just had David Spiegelthal wave his magic wand over my
> Buffet. He reduced its pitch errors from huge to easily
> manageable. He did a wizard job, was quick to return the horn,
> and much cheaper than any new clarinet.
>
>
Bob, in response to this email and the later one where you show a tuning chart, what was done to affect tuning to the degree shown (was any cutting done on holes or is this degree of change attributable to pad heights or other changes)? Maybe Dave could also answer this. And, what is "much cheaper than any new clarinet" (unless one cannot state that on this BB). If your pre- and post-repair charts are reliable (in the sense of being replicable on different days, perhaps with different reeds), this looks like a big difference and I am curious what it takes to get an effect like this. George
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Author: vjoet
Date: 2006-04-13 16:35
If you haven't seen "The Clarinet Doctor" by Howard Klug, the answer to your upper clarion and altissimo may be what he describes in the chapter Tongue and Throat, p 62 & ff. I know it help me diagnose and correct a similar problem (after not playing for 35+ years). One quote: "In many ways, we do with our tongue what brass players do with their lips."
One excerise: play throat F# and then with the same fingering play altissimo C#. Then throat G, and with same fingering altissimo D. etc. It is, as he describes, the back of the tongue that selects the register. For me that was enlightening.
vJoe
amateur clarinetist
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-04-13 19:04
ghuba,
Here's a quote from the summary David Spiegelthal provided with the re-tuning work on my Buffet.
Here's what I did:
1. To correct flat low chalumeau F: Modified the tonehole (enlarged on upper side and lined on lower side) -- seems to have brought that note up around 5 cents, maybe a bit more. Can't do more than that or the upper 12th, clarion C, will go sharp.
2. You mentioned top space E being sharp -- I consistently found the opposite, that it was a bit low, so I did not modify that particular note. If you find clarion E to be low as I did, try adding r.h. pinky Ab/Eb key to raise the pitch.
3. Register vent: I chamfered the vent tube on the exit side and increased the pad opening height -- this helps temper the clarion register and opens up the 'pinch' throat Bb.
4. I increased the opening height of both bottom-line Ebs (the r.h. trill key and the sliver key) to better vent these notes and bring the pitch up a tad.
5. I raised the entire upper and lower stack heights to improve overall venting, which tends to reduce the resistance slightly and generally tunes everything better.
6. I slightly enlarged, and radiused the rim at the exit end of the small vent hole on the upper joint (the one between the first two rings) to improve venting of the bottom-line E and the F just above.
7. As already reported, I swaged the register key tube to eliminate the side play; eliminated the interference between the alternate Ab/Eb spatula and the two other l.h. spatulas adjacent to it; and re-shimmed those spatulas to reduce side play and noise.
As for cost, Dave works dirt cheap. I'm not comfortable quoting prices on his behalf. His work cost less than 20% that of a full overhaul with cork pads by a major, nationally renowned clarinet repair shop --and that included return shipping and insurance.
I sent Dave a copy of my "before" tuning chart, and he was primed with ideas about what to do before even having the clarinet in-hand. He sent me a great-playing loaner horn; when I had it set-up, I sent my Buffet to him; and it was back here (west side) from WVA in less than 2-weeks. I just returned his loaner --the rental on the loaner was: FREE.
In our pre-service discussions, Dave mad it clear that I would be on my own to cure the horn's altissimo problems; but, as can be seen from the chart, his work removed most of the difficulties I was having up there.
I recommend talking to him.
By the way, the horn's tuning has been consistent day to day and reed to reed. Room temperature generally moves the pitch up and down, calling for tuning barrel pulls, but the horn is consistent with itself.
Bob Phillips
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2006-04-13 23:19
i want to thank each of you for your posts. there is 3 weeks left before our spring concert and then i plan on doing a few things to correct the problem before the summer - have one/or some from this board play my clarinet and see if they have the same problem - if so - will see about having some magic wand work done on it. if not ....well, who knows - one step at a time.
i will be emailing a couple of you regarding this issue
and oh - i did hear from the good doctor. while the forte is an excellent instrument for beginner/intermediate players, it may not be what im looking for.
thanks again for all the help!
jan
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