 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-03 06:01
I was going to bid on an older Marigaux clarinet, but realised the seller wouldn't post to the UK:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7402358425&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
Not bad price for whoever got it, and it has a forked Eb mechanism!
If anyone does play or has one of these or any Marigaux clarinets, what are they like? I tried a Marigaux Symphony clarinet back in the late '80s and the tuning was dire!
Back again - I just won a Marigaux cor anglais case and cover on there, so I'm chuffed http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7403071310&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1.
I know exactly what Marigaux oboes and cors are like (as I own a Marigaux cor having chosen it over a Howarth, Loree and Rigoutat as I thought t had the best sound out of them all), only last week I overhauled an older Marigaux oboe (of the same era as the clarinet in the link going by the logo) and most of the key parts including some pad cups were single piece castings - did they do the same on their clarinets as well?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-04-03 06:37)
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2006-04-03 06:14
I had the opportunity to examine and play one of these a few years ago. It's a nice instrument all in all, but the metal they used for the keywork was a little soft. Hence you must be even more careful when assembling the instrument.
Christopher Nichols
1st Infantry Division Band
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-03 06:25
Aah, so they probably do use those soft cast keys! One oboe I worked on had all the pad cups and key arms cast in one piece, but the insides of the pad cups were pretty rough as they hadn't been reamed out.
The Symphony model clarinet had several extra adjusting screws (as is typical of Marigaux) and rollers on the C and Eb keys. I did like the feel of the keywork and the tone, but the intonation let it down.
Did Marigaux take over Malerne? Just curious as their clarinets and oboes/cors bear a striking resemblance.
I just found out they took over Malerne in the mid '70s, hence the similarity.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-04-03 12:20)
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-04-03 06:44
Their oboes are beautiful, I understand.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-03 06:55
One thing to be aware of on older Marigaux oboes is worn out pillars, especially on the main action where the steel passes through the pillars - and even worse if it's a fully automatic (and fully loaded) German model where you want the mechanism to be as tight as possible.
The only solution on this one was to replace the main action pillars as the wear was excessive as well as oval, and fit an oversize steel - it's normally 2.4mm on the main action but I went up to 2.8mm as it was that far gone, but there was enough metal in the key barrels to take the larger diameter steel. The cross keys are an annoying 1.9mm - most makers use 2.0mm.
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Author: joannew
Date: 2006-04-03 08:19
I just saw a nice looking Marigaux A clarinet this weekend. I was told that it was new, acquired by the shop a couple of years back when Marigaux went out of business. It had serial number 000XX, which seemed a little odd for a company that goes back several decades (if I remember correctly), and in fact the upper and lower joint serial numbers were out by one digit. But the keywork looked very interesting. It had a nicely shaped register key (asymmetric rather than tear-drop touchpiece), and instead of the crowsfoot had arms with adjustment screws over the key cups. Also the bell was shaped much more like that of an oboe than the usual clarinet shape. Very interesting....
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-03 11:44
Marigaux went out of business?
I've heard some stories from shop owners, but that one wins hands down!
http://www.marigaux.com/index_en.html
But that definitely sounds like the 'R S Symphony' clarinet - assymetric speaker key and the long F/C barrel with adjusting screw tipped arms. The E/B and F#/C# keys had adjusting screws where they met the LH levers as well, with those huge blue steel adjusting screws - the heads are 2.7mm as opposed to the usual 2.4mm.
If you get the chance, try it out with a tuner at hand, I'd be interested to see how you find the tuning.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-04-03 11:54)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-04-03 12:20
Back in the mid- or late-80's, the Woodwind & Brasswind got a single shipment of intermediate-level Marigaux S200 clarinets, which they were selling for a very low price. I ordered one on a whim, and it played so much better than the Buffet R-13 my teacher had picked out for me (and which I had struggled with for years) that I immediately sold the Buffet (for more than I had paid for it!) and happily played the Marigaux for the following several years. I never bought another Buffet, by the way. That Marigaux was 100% standard modern clarinet, forged nickel-plated keywork, nicely made.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-04-03 14:43
*****I was going to bid on an older Marigaux clarinet, but realised the seller wouldn't post to the UK*****
Actually the buyer from UK won this clarinet.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-03 16:57
BAH! I went on the assumption it was only shipped within France by the shipping instruction (Post to: France) - as you probably gathered my French isn't all that good - and I could have ended up with a Marigaux clarinet for aroud the same price I bought the cor case for! Shipping would have probably only been around 15 Euros to the UK as well.
Still, look at it tis way - that's around £140 I saved there - I've got too many clarinets lying around the place as it is.
The cor case is more important to me though as my Marigaux cor came with an Orly/Gewa/Fel double case (which is good, but bulky), and sometimes I wouldn't mind the single case if I'm only playing cor or let someone (trustworthy) borrow it.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2006-04-03 17:05
-- "I was going to bid on an older Marigaux clarinet, but realised the seller wouldn't post to the UK:" --
Chris, did you ask him? I've NEVER found an Ebayer who refused to post abroad. You have to remember that the french are more insular than other europeans and often simply don't consider that there are other buyers outside France. I always send a polite email and they're very willing to post it.
I buy things from France, Italy, UK and USA. There's a guy in France who sells clarinet pads for 15 Euros/set, and you can pick up some amazing bargains in Italy. Very often the seller hasn't a clue about the instrument!
Need any help with the language, just ask. I lived there for 10 years.
Still got the beret and string of onions to prove it! ;-)
Steve
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-03 18:13
I left it a bit too late to contact the seller as I saw it listed a few hours before the bidding ended, and I was working at the time - but no real loss - another one might turn up, and like I said I already have enough clarinets lying around.
But I have bought some pad irons - a set of 5 for 60 Euros, but just have to wait for the seller to get back to me as they don't know the postage cost from France before I hit the button to close the sale - and I think these will be a lot more useful than another clarinet cluttering up my house.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-03 21:01
The S200 model Bb clarinets were also sold by Howarth in the late '80s as an entry level wooden model, and had the Howarth logo stamped on all sections - here's the 1989 prices (in £ Sterling) of the popular clarinets in this category showing where the Marigaux S200 fitted:
Yamaha 34II £400
Howarth/Marigaux £425
Noblet Artist £432
Yamaha 34IIS £438
Noblet Artist 104 £444
Howarth/Marigaux (in silver plate) £450
Buffet E11 £499
[ Chris P. is an employee of Howarth's and did not disclose such until much later. My apologies for missing this and letting Chris P. misuse this BBoard. Mark Charette ]
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-04-05 02:24
Until 1974 'Marigaux' was professional level instrument, 'Lemaire' – intermediate and 'Strasser' was a name for student level instrument. 'Marigaux" 355 was the last professional model of this period. In 1974 the sole surviving partner Mr. Strasser sold the company.
The new owner (privately-backed management) stopped making 'Strasser' and 'Lemaire' models and the Marigaux name was used for the entire line of clarinets.
Marigaux clarinet 200, (S-200) Standard model, Bb, nickel-plated keys
Marigaux clarinet 201, (S-200) Standard model, Bb, silver-plated keys
Marigaux clarinet 300, (S-300), Professional model, Bb, nickel-plated keys
Marigaux clarinet 301, (S-301), Professional model, Bb, silver -plated keys
Marigaux 351 Clarinet "RS" Symphonie, top of the line, in the key of Bb
Marigaux 352 Clarinet "RS" Symphonie, top of the line, in the key of A
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Fred
Date: 2006-04-05 23:33
Vytas, the wood isn't the only dense thing around here. I've been so dense I can't believe it.
My King Marigaux is marked 285 at the bottom of both long joints, while the lower joint also has 355 at the top of the joint. I was mistaking one or the other for a serial number . . . but I see no serial number at all. Those are two of the model numbers that you have been reporting on for years. The clarinet is in mint condition, so I'm confident the s/n has not been removed.
So I don't know what I've got . . . a 285 . . . a 355 . . . or just an anonymous clarinet with multiple personalities.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-04-06 01:32
Fred,
The number on the bottom of each joint is the serial number. The number on the top of LJ is the model number. Your clarinet is a 'Marigaux 355'.
My King 'Marigaux 350' has 4-digit serial number on the bottom of each joint and "350" on the top of the lower joint.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Fred
Date: 2006-04-06 03:16
So it was just a coincidence that the serial number "285" matches one of their model numbers! Imagine the odds . . .
Anyone got a Buffet out there with the serial number R13?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-04-06 06:16
Chrip P wrote: "I already have enough clarinets lying around."
Can you please contact me by email?
Thanks.
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Author: nickma
Date: 2006-04-07 22:52
Chris P: I won that Marigaux you linked to in a French ebay auction. Vytas correctly identified that I live in England. Unfortunately the seller was wasting all our time: she decided that she wouldn't part with it after all, and refused to proceed with the contract.
I have bought recently 3 Marigaux clarinets.
One was the same vintage of the one referred to above, with an old fashioned side trill key guide. It is fine, plays very correctly, and the keywork is decent but pretty standard maillechort. It is NOT awesome. About as good as an averagely decent LL.
I also bought a King Marigaux 355T like Fred's. This is a work of art, with a modern trill key guide, and keywork, pillar mountings, gold plated springs, and amazingly dense wood. I have just finished overhauling it, so need a bit of time to pass judgement on it.
Finally I bought an SML Marigaux in the key of A that is the identical model in every respect to the King 355T, including modern trill key guide, gold plated springs etc. etc....except the wood is unstained and the bottom joint connection tab is very slightly different. This still needs an overhaul which I'll do next over the next month (it is in near mint condition but has obviously not been played for a decade or so: then again it only cost €260).
I believe Vtyas conjectured a while ago that the equivalent to the 350/355 King Marigaux models must exist under the SML brand. Yes it does. Like your model 350, Vytas, it has a 4 digit serial number too, as supposed to the 355T's 3 digit number, stamped on the bottom of each joint (with the 355 model designation stamped on the top of the bottom joint).
crnichols: the keywork on the latter 2 Marigaux clarinets is very solid, thick silver plate, and not at all soft. Quite the opposite in fact, the keys are relatively stiff, just pliable enough to gently change shape as fingering preferences dictate, but not as pliable as Buffet/ Selmer keywork. About the same as the keywork on 70s LLs.
Nick
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-08 07:14
That's a shame Nick, it would have been a steal at around £150. Funny as I was wondering if someone on here would put in a bid for it.
I suppose it's all a test of our faith, but look at it this way - you've saved yourself £150.
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Author: nickma
Date: 2006-04-08 07:33
Yes Chris, one less clarinet to worry about. One more day I can spend with the kids....and I just bought a truly mint Leblanc 'Systeme' L100 alto sax from '59 - lots of fun!!
Nick
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-04-08 12:38
The King Marigaux 355T I have had for a few months expanded my conception of the instrument. The craftwork is exceptional, the wood is very dense, and the horn is very very very responsive. While maybe not the "best" clarinet I have, it is probably the most fun to play. This is a horn you just pick up and play intuitively without "fighting" it in any way.
George
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-09 00:26
Nick -
I've just done a show with someone who knows you - Colin Campbell.
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Author: nickma
Date: 2006-04-09 18:51
Chris -
Ah, the man who acquired a Selmer 9 from me, who also introduced me to Peter Snowdon - He had the misfortune to meet me when my tech skills were still being honed! then again I did swap his blown Buffet.
Pete's just overhauled an SML sax I sold on ebay, and did a magical job on it.
Colin'll vouch for my love of Selmer 10Gs, which I think can be fabulous. Having play tested the Marigaux, it is really very good, extremely even, very centered but not AS good in my opinion as the best of the 10Gs. Certainly not with a Morgan custom barrel fitted anyhow: these things are the best $150 you're ever likely to spend..
Pleased to be introduced to you!
Nick
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-09 20:54
HAHAHA! "Not as good as mine" I think that'll be his epitaph!
I let him try out my Buffet Prestige bass clarinet yesterday, but he didn't want to use it for the performances (where he played his plastic Vito - obviously he wouldn't be used to it and it's safer to stick with what you know) - and I mentioned that 'Well, it's not as good as yours, is it?' before he got the chance!
But I wasn't all that impressed by a couple of comments he made yeaterday - saying 'A clarinets have a completely different tone to Bb clarinets' (I was being taunted for using an A clarinet for playing in sharp keys), and he even said my set of Series 9 full Boehms were 'bastardised' Selmers, having thought I'd added the extra keywork! Though I set him right there - I wasn't having any of that.
He was playing your Series 9 this week as well - that's an export model U-series, nickel plated keys and in the old grey zip up Selmer case.
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Author: nickma
Date: 2006-04-09 21:38
I love A clarinets. Welcome to try out my Marigaux SML 'A' if you like!......
Nick
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Author: Fred
Date: 2006-04-10 23:33
Those of you having 355 experience, what is your impression of the tuning characteristics? Mine plays like it is tuned to 442 . . . or, perhaps I should say, it plays like my F144XXX Buffet. It's very manageable, but I do pull out at both the barrel and between the joints to get to where I want to be. Given the low exposure of SML in the clarinet market . . . and even lower exposure in the American clarinet market, I would not be surprised if it was designed at 442.
That being said . . . I've never seen prettier wood on a clarinet, and the keywork is magnificent as well. I wonder if a trip to a master that understood Marigauxs could turn this into top tier performer?
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-04-11 04:22
Fred,
I had King "Marigaux 355 T" in my collection for a short time. Also, I did overhaul couple of 355 Ts. All of them were designed @ 440HZ
I've compared my King "Marigaux 350" with the King "Marigaux 355 T" and noticed some differences.
'355 T' had wider 12ths than '350'.
Throat Bb was better on the '350'.
Pad cups on the '350' were smaller than on the '355 T'.
I've noticed that King "Marigaux 355 T" had more traditional tuning features than my King "Marigaux 350". I guess the *T* stands for the Traditional model?
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: nickma
Date: 2006-04-12 20:07
Playing characteristics of my 355T is that it tunes exceptionally, but requires a barrel of maximum 65 mm to do so for me at least. It plays best with the 'A' barrel from the equivalent model SML-badged 'A' Marigaux. Top C does need to be lipped down slightly, but the altissimo is very well behaved indeed. Throat notes are excellent too.
Overall the 355T is a warmer sound than the mainstream (R13, 10G etc), but can be pushed just as hard if not harder. The Marigaux is fussy of mouthpiece and reed combinations.
I prefer the keywork of both R13 and 10G. Although the construction of the Marigaux is top notch, there are one or two noticeable anomolies in the alignment of the cups with the arms.
Crnichols is right, the cup arms are too pliable, which could make the Marigaux more prone to leaks. I don't know, it's just conjecture.
Overall, the sound is full and round, the intonation on mine is absolutely brilliant, the keywork feels slightly different under the fingers. It's not madly different, just marginally.
Nick
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Author: Fred
Date: 2006-04-13 00:29
Very strange, Nick. My Marigaux barrel is 66.5mm, and I play sharp on it. I've got an SML Symphonie barrel around here somewhere - maybe I can find it and give it a try.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-13 13:21
Chris, you wrote:
"One thing to be aware of on older Marigaux oboes is worn out pillars.....The only solution on this one was to replace the main action pillars as the wear was excessive as well as oval, and fit an oversize steel..."
Just curious... Why didn't you simply ream out the posts to oversize instead of replacing them?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-13 21:46
The pillars were worn out beyond belief - the holes through them were oval, and around 2.8mm at the narrowest and well over 3mm at the widest - and the largest diameter steel I had was 2.8mm - anything wider would have made the key barrels very thin (they're around 3.5mm outside diameter).
It was much easier to replace the pillars than hard soldering bushes into the worn out ones as the plating would have gone, and the new ones lined up better. And being a full German spec (fully automatic octaves, conservatoire 1-2-3 mech, roller F key, F key resonance vent and B-C link) the mechanism needs to be as tight as possible.
I once borrowed an old Malerne cor where the side G# key couldn't be used without causing the LH main action to shift slightly causing the LH finger 3 key to leak as there was so much wear in the pillars.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-04-13 22:07)
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Author: nickma
Date: 2007-02-19 18:00
Having sold off my previous 355T to a jazz dude in New York called Michael Marcus, I have now found another one on ebay which went for $280, so I shall see how intonation is on this one when I finally get it. Like the last one, it needs everything doing.
I also bought a NOS Marigaux RS Symphonie recently. Unplayed. The keywork looks wonderful, and I didn't see Chris's post before I bought it - doh! My guess is that Marigaux clarinets are very variable, from a few I've bought and sold, with the best being really good and the worst being idiosyncratic. Why else would Fred's clarinet play sharp with a longish barrel and mine - for all intents and purposes the same model - require a very short 63mm barrel? Again I'lll have to wait to my next USA trip before playing it.
Nick
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-06-06 21:43
> I also bought a NOS Marigaux RS Symphonie recently.
Ha! Me too. Today the baby arrived. Being NOS, the keywork looked a bit yellowish (prolly from just hanging around), but I've never seen wood like this; the manufacturer didn't just slap black varnish on it; the wood shines through, very even, very warm. The bell looks like stolen from an oboe and there are lots of adjusting screws everywhere. Before cleaning the keywork, I gave it a whirl over my current repertoire. At combat temperature, the tuning (A=442) is impeccable, plusminus 5 cents, except from the F (near open G) which is somewhat flat. And the keywork is a dream. The asymmetric register key, the Eb-C rollers, the side trills...
My only gripe is that I have to re-cork my favourite mouthpiece - the barrel socket is just a tad wider than elsewhere.
I wonder why no one picked up these ergonomic niftities, for example that register key... (would be interesting to see eg Luigi Colani or Sir Dyson create a new clarinet keywork...)
Anyhow, I think I found "my" horn.
--
Ben
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-06-06 22:47
Marigaux RS Symphonie is a modern clarinet with some very old futures. This clarinet has nothing to do with the original Mr. Marigaux clarinet design. It was made for a famous French clarinet player (RS? forgot the name) by his spec. on the keywork. I've heard a lot of comments that this clarinet is actually better than the Marigaux from the 70's. I personally never tried the RS Symphonie so I wouldn't know.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-06-06 23:11
The "RS" in question is Roland Simoncini, a former solo clarinetist of the Orchestre National de France.
(since there is precious little information on these clarinets on the 'net (I did ask Marigaux for further gossip, but to no avail as of yet), I did some research myself and plan to put up a web page or two)
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-06 23:24
Talking of Marigaux, I just bought a '70s Marigaux 912 oboe d'amore today (full German spec with a crudely added thumbplate to make it dual system) to add to my collection.
And what a beauty it is - the wood is in remarkable condition. It has a highly polished finish, the grain is clearly visible and the (mostly skin) pads look like they could be original - and then there's the tone! Although it plays beautifully (and I've just been annoying the neighbours by playing through a load of Bach cantatas!) it will need the action balancing. Though as with most instruments I own, it will have to have some keywork surgery done to it followed by a complete overhaul.
Somerset Rhapsody anyone? BRING IT ON!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-06-09 13:57)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2007-06-07 06:07
My teacher from the Minneapolis Symphony, Earl Handlon, sold Marigaux clarinets from his house when I studied with him from 1947 to 1950. They were considered fine upper level intermediate instruments. I bought a Noblet, however, in a white leather case with a C/F vent key which also played well.
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-08-29 22:19
No thanks to having seen Ben posting his R S Symphonie, (and me getting into a financial hiccup that made me miss the opportunity to buy that horn) I would like to ask if anyone has actually compared the Marigaux with the other makers' top horns. Of course no horn plays by itself nor is any a panacea, but how does the last of the Marigaux clarinet fare against say the Tosca mechanically?
EDIT:
I have now managed to secure a sample miraculously. I will do whatever I can to add to Ben's informative page on the instrument when it arrives. Why am I doing this to myself!
Post Edited (2010-08-30 08:37)
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-09-13 20:21
My sample happens to be no. 10026, and it arrived at my door today.
This horn's bell glistens almost like a polished furniture, but it is Grenadilla. The weight of this instrument is about the same as the CSG. Some people might get fooled into thinking that the horn's an Albert because of the design of the crow's foot keys with the top 2 having rollers and all.
The top joint is standard Boehm fair except for the aforementioned ergonomic enhancements. The landing zone is brilliant and my pinky doesn't feel so naked and vulnerable as it used to be.
The adjustment screws on the left hand levers is something that I've yet seen on any other horn. The presence of these adjustment screws on the bottom joint reminds me a great deal of the Backun horns. The ergonomics make me think of the Tosca.
The original thumb rest used on the R S is what Ben's model no longer has. This thumb rest has a thumb screw that allows you to adjust the height on the fly since you can fasten it without a screwdriver.
Playing this horn is fun. The altissimo is a little less forgiving in my opinion than the CSG initially, but the resistance is even throughout and I think I like the chalumeau more than the CSG. The instrument even without a repad job is... adorable in its response, with the ergonomic keys giving me better response whenever I have to deal with those dreaded keys operated by the right hand pinky. Due to it not being serviced however, you can hear the clicking, you can see the tarnish, and you can feel that the suction isn't perfect over the lower joint, but... I somehow stopped caring about those things with the horn.
edit1: The top and bottom tenon joints, with their ample use of metal, have a different frictional coefficient to that of the bare joints.
edit2: I needed to take more mpc in for the altissimo. After doing that, the thing almost plays itself.
Post Edited (2010-09-13 21:11)
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-09-15 18:23
After another day spent with the instrument, I have it sent to Morrie and have decided that it wins against my CSG. The level of work put into the manufacturing of that horn is comparable to a Hammerschmidt or a Rossi.
I have taken 2 photo of the thumb rest.
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/3619/img3520bx.jpg
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/9302/img3519b.jpg
Post Edited (2010-09-15 18:27)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-09-15 19:13
Here's the one from mine:
The one I've sold was lacking the screw indeed, so I had to resort to a screwdriver-operated replacement.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-09-15 21:21
Marigaux cors have a similar one, though the thumbrest part itself is a wide oval instead of being circular - and still with the whale-tail bit on the underside to prevent it turning.
Only problem with the cor one was lack of a sling ring, so I had mine changed for a Howarth adjustable thumbrest (which has a ring on it) and put the Marigaux one on my Leblanc LL full Boehm.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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