 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: lg_guy
Date: 2006-04-06 03:03
I hope someone here can help. I have an Evette & Schaeffer clarinet that I played when I was much younger. I even have the warranty registration card that my parents filled out when they bought it for me! The serial number of the instrument is K11663. After reading the information on the BB, I can't figure out if this is good or bad! It's in good shape, no cracks, good pads, good cork, and even I (after all these years) can get a nice sound out of it. Any help deeply appreciated. Thanks!
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2006-04-06 07:52
There is a lot of info here about Evette and Schaeffer clarinets, isn't there? The bottom line is that Evette and Schaeffer clarinets are Buffet student clarinets of the 50's and 60's. From memory, I believe K11xxx serial number makes it about 1961 and also indicates it to be a Master Model. Does it say that in the logo? Master Models were the best of the ES clarinets in those days. Some of these played quite nice and are appreciated today.
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Author: William
Date: 2006-04-06 15:02
Duke Ellington, "If it sounds good, it IS good". Who cares what is written about it, if it sounds good to you and others who hear you play, case closed. Incidentally, it is well known that Stradivarius, the Master violin maker whose instruments are reveared and often sell for millions, also made a lot of violins that did not sound very good. Of the 600 or so that are known to still exist, only a few are considered to be extrodinary in tone quality. The rest sell more for their famous name, not how well they play.
Your E & S may be a Strad in disguise. Play well, have fun and don't worry about it.
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Author: lg_guy
Date: 2006-04-06 17:28
Thanks for the information! I saw in some of the older posts that Buffet used to have a serial number lookup feature on their website. It looks like that vanished in the most recent revision. Also to Wayne's question, there is no marking as to Master Model, but again, that seems to have been something that came and went based on other posts on this board.
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Author: corks&pads
Date: 2006-04-06 17:56
I think that the E&S Master Models manufactured as part of the K series were so designated because, after being built as "regular" E&S instruments, they turned out to have a superior sound.
The usual attribution for this is that the wood was more dense in some of the instruments than in others. But, for whatever reason, it simply appears that they sounded better, had the Master Model stamp added, and were sold at a premium price. Although lots of things have been said about these, I've compared a few of these to a "normal" K series E&S Bb clarinet, and couldn't find any difference in how they appeared to have been made.
Unlike some series of the "Academy Models," the MMs don't seem to be better instruments with a minor flaw.
But back to the E&S K series ...
I think that yours might be a little newer than 1961, but that's in the ballpark. Many people think that the (approximately) 5,000 - 15,000 K series are best. The bore changed about the beginning of that time, and the manufacturing materials and standards were still very good.
These were good intermediate-model student instruments, roughly equivalent to the later E-11 series, although it's a reasonable argument that better-quality wood was available then, and there's a strong school of thought that the instruments made in France are overall superior to those made in W. Germany. The original mouthpiece could also be superior to those found on later student instruments.
But, as has already been so accurately stated, how it plays for you is the true measure of how good it is and what it's worth (to you).
Post Edited (2006-04-06 18:19)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2006-04-07 04:55
From the Buffet serial number list on this website, your clarinet was probably made in 1961.
There was a period of time when all E&S clarinets appear to have been labeled "Master Models" but your instrument was made later. The serial number range for this period is roughly K5000 - K10000. It may have begun a bit earlier or continued a bit longer but, obviously ended before your instrument was made. By the time yours was made, according to Buffet's promotional literature, the "Master Model" designation (at least for instruments with the K prefix) indicates normal production E&S instruments that performed particularly well when they were tested. To me, the change in use of the "Master Model" designation suggests a design change for the E&S around the time yours was made -- perhaps the introduction of the polycylindrical bore into this model. From what I have been able to find, Buffet did not introduce the polycylindrical bore in the E&S until some time after it had been incorporated in the professional (R13) model. I infer that the bore change was more likely sometime between 10000 and 11000 than around 5000.
Buffet did not consider E&S clarinets to be a student model. Rather, they were high-end intermediate instruments, just below the R13. Buffet says "same design but less hand finishing." However, the archives document a number of design differences. Nevertheless, they were made in the same factory as R13's, probably by the same craftsmen. (According to Buffet, Evettes were always made in a different factory -- even before production was shifted to Germany.) The successor to the E&S was the E13, not the E11 (whose predecessor was the Evette) and, if memory serves, the E&S designation was used until around 1980 or 81, when the designation was changed to E13.
Odds are, especially given the way yours appears to play, that you have a pretty good horn.
I think Vytas knows more about these instruments than just about anyone else on the Board. Perhaps he will jump in with additional information or corrections to what I have said.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2006-04-07 14:54)
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Author: corks&pads
Date: 2006-04-10 00:47
The successor to the E&S was the E13, not the E11 (whose predecessor was the Evette) and, if memory serves, the E&S designation was used until around 1980 or 81, when the designation was changed to E13.
Fair enough, Jack, but where would that place the E&S Master Models in the chain of evolution? I've seen one person refer to them as "E113," but never saw the source of that information cited.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2006-04-10 04:42
By the time the E&S was redesignated the E13, there were relatively few E&S Master Models produced each year and, as I mentioned above, these were production line E&S clarinets that performed particularly well on final inspection, i.e., Buffet did not intentionally set out to make E&S Master Model, they just occasionally happened. At the time, these were actually designated ME-13 not E113 (though I must admit, E113 was also what first came to my mind and, when an archive search failed to turn it up, I had to pull out my copy of an old Buffet brochure to find the correct designation).
To quote this brochure, which dates back to the 1960's (thanks again, Doug):
"Instruments that embody considerable hand-craftsmanship, as do all the Buffet products, will vary slightly from instrument to instrument. Those Evette & Schaeffer Clarinets that surpass the superb quality characteristic of all Evette & Schaeffer instruments, are set aside to comprise the ME-13 Master Model Evette & Schaeffer Clarinets."
BTW, during the 60's, these designations (E13 and ME-13) from the brochure were not Buffet's but rather were catalog numbers assigned by Carl Fisher, Buffet's US importer. Buffet didn't adopt E13 as a model designation until much later.
So to answer your question, the descendent of the E&S is the E13 and, I guess, the descendents of the E&S Master Model are simply really good E13's.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: corks&pads
Date: 2006-04-10 15:38
Jack -
Thanks ... not only for the good info, but especially for citing the source. Is that also where you got the "same design but less hand finishing" quote that you posted previously? There's a wealth of good E&S info in the archives, but not much cites the source.
Here are some other questions for you...
Where in the hierarchy would you place the Evette MMs that were made soon after the E&S were discontinued?
When do you feel that all E&S were marked as MMs? I've got examples that range pretty much throughout the K series, and have seen "regular" E&S instruments pretty much manufactured between those serial numbers. I've always assumed that these were stamped with "Master Model" after being assembled and tested.
On that note, have you ever seen a K series E&S MM with "Master Model" stamped under the marque on the lower joint--where the keys would have had to be off to do so? I haven't, which seems to support the argument that this was always a post-assembly designation.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2006-04-10 18:41
I don't know when Buffet first sold Evette Master Models. I have one that was made in 1976 and the ones I've seen on eBay recently all had comparable or higher serial numbers (D38xxx). I have always assumed they had been around for awhile by then but I don't have any evidence to support that assumption. From what I've read, Buffet did not discontinue the E&S, they simply redesignated it the E13 around 1980-81. Everything I've read or heard in the past indicates that the Evette Master Model was the predecessor to the E12. I recall the first time I saw that claim a number of years ago. It came from a long-time music store owner/Buffet dealer in Kansas who had one for sale on eBay. Because of your comment about the stamped master model logo, I checked the logo on my Evette MM. The only section stamped "Master Model" is the upper joint. The barrel, bell and lower joint simply have the standard Evette logo. However, the serial numbers match on the two joints and I bought the instrument from its original owner who said it had not been played much and was all original. Indeed, it was in pristine condition when I bought it. Also, the "Master Model" stamp appears to have been an after-thought. It is cut much deeper than the original logo. This leads me to believe that Buffet took the same approach to identifying Master Model Evettes as they did to identifying E&S Master Models. (Pictures from a recently-sold Evette MM on eBay also show the MM stamp only on the upper joint.)
I think that the period when all E&S clarinets were Master Models corresponds roughly to the time Buffet was introducing the polycylindrical bore R13. At one time, I tried to establish at least a rough range of serial numbers when all E&S clarinets were stamped Master Models. At the lower end, K37xx was not a master model. On the other hand, K4144 was. At the upper end, I have a couple of pictures of (what the seller claimed to be) K9700. A picture of the upper joint clearly indicates that it is not marked Master Model. On the other hand, K10511 is a master model and the designation is incorporated in the basic logo - wrapped around the top of the oval, not stamped separately. K10593 is not a master model. About all I can say is that, of about 30 E&S clarinets numbered between K4000 and K10511 that I have seen over the years on eBay and elsewhere, the only one not marked Master Model was K9700 (and none of the pictures of this instrument actually show a serial number though I have no reason to doubt the seller).
To be honest with you, I can't remember whether I have seen a separate Master Model stamp on the lower joint of an E&S or not. As I mentioned before, on K10511, the MM designation is pretty clearly part of the marque. That would suggest it belongs to the era when all E&S instruments were Master Models. The only later example I have is from the 20000's. On it, "Master Model" is stamped below the Buffet logo on the upper joint and could easily have been a separate stamp. The lower joint is not stamped Master Model but, unfortunately that doesn't prove anything because the lower joint is a replacement with a different serial number. I'll have to keep my eyes open. Thank you for drawing my attention to that possibility. Maybe someone else can provide input.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: susieray
Date: 2006-04-10 18:55
Attachment: master model lower joint.jpg (195k)
I have Evette & Schaeffer Master Model, serial number K19729 which is clearly stamped with the Master Model designation on all four sections. I am attaching a photo of the lower joint stamp.
Sue
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Author: corks&pads
Date: 2006-04-10 20:56
Thanks, Susie Ray and Jack!
Boy, I'm glad that I didn't bet cash on my memory being accurate! Here are some interesting data points:
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K3689 ... E&S MM, Serial # K3689 -- Master Model stamped below the E&S marque. Probably a separate stamp. Does not appear to be a MM stamp on the lower joint (beneath hardware). (EB)
K37xx ... E&S K37xx was not a master model. (JNK)
K4144 ... E&S K4144 was a MM. (JNK)
K6285 ... E&S MM, Serial # K6285 -- Master Model stamped below the E&S marque. Probably a separate stamp. Does not appear to be a MM stamp on the lower joint (beneath hardware). (EB)
K67xx ... E&S MM, Serial # K67xx -- Master Model stamped below the E&S marque. Clearly a separate stamp. No MM stamp on the lower joint (beneath hardware). (Mine)
K71xx ... E&S MM, Serial # K71xx -- Master Model stamped above the E&S marque and clearly part of that marque. MM stamp is on the lower joint (beneath hardware) and presumed to be on other 3 parts. (EB)
K7474 ... E&S MM, Serial # K7474 -- Master Model wrapped above the E&S marque and clearly part of that marque. MM stamp is on the lower joint (beneath hardware) and on other 3 parts. (Mine)
K7845 ... E&S MM, Serial # K7845 -- Master Model wrapped above the E&S marque and clearly part of that marque. MM stamp is on the lower joint (beneath hardware) and presumed to be on other 3 parts. (EB)
K91xx ... E&S MM, Serial # K91xx -- Master Model wrapped above the E&S marque and clearly part of that marque. MM stamp is on the lower joint (beneath hardware) and on other 3 parts. (Mine)
K9700 ... E&S K9700 -- Not a Master Model. (JNK)
K10511 ... E&S K10511 is a master model and the designation is incorporated in the basic logo - wrapped around the top of the oval, not stamped separately. (JNK)
K10593 ... K10593 is not a master model. (JNK)
K11663 ... K11663 is owned by Steve, who started this thread. Not sure if it says "Master Model," or not.
K19729 ... E&S MM, Serial # K19729 -- Master Model stamped above the E&S marque and clearly part of that marque, but not "wrapped." MM stamp is on the lower joint (beneath hardware) and on other 3 parts. (Susie Ray/EB)
K29988 ... K29988 does not appear to be a Master Model (EB)
K32591 ... K32591 does not appear to be a master model. (EB)
B4xxx ... E&S Serial #B4xxx -- Not a MM. (EB)
B8427 ... E&S Serial #B8427 -- Not a MM. (EB)
B8662 ... E&S Serial #B8662 -- Not a MM. (EB)
B9840 ... E&S Serial #B8662 -- Not a MM. (EB)
D33xxx ... Evette MM, Serial # D33xxx -- Master Model stamped below the Buffet Evette marque. This one is pretty clearly a separate stamp. No MM stamp on the lower joint (beneath hardware). Serial numbers match. (Mine)
D38xxx ... Evette MM, Serial # D38xxx -- Master Model. The only section stamped "Master Model" is the upper joint. The barrel, bell and lower joint simply have the standard Evette logo. However, the serial numbers match on the two joints (JNK)
Post Edited (2006-04-12 00:50)
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