 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-08 06:40
They say necessity is the mother of invention.......
My Bonade ligature failed recently, unexpectedly and completely...one loud crack and it was gone.
I ordered a new ligature, but it's taking its time in coming, and I'm tired of playing on an old, damaged (but usable) Rovner.
I went down to the hardware store and bought some rubber O-rings, 20, 22, and 24 mm ID thick rubber ones. The 20's fit pretty tightly around my mouthpiece and reed, and the 24's are a bit on the loose side. All of them seem to pretty good on play testing. It's just a bit strange as when I'm finished my right hand keeps reaching up to undo the thumbscrews that aren't there.
Now, this is a pretty obvious idea to me, as they fulfil the same basic requirements as a string, so I'm pretty sure my idea isn't novel. I'm just wondering if:
a) anybody has tried something like this.....
b) if anyone would like to
I'd be interested in seeing the results.
By the way, I also bought some brass that I'm going to braze into rails to try to see if a metal clamp on the reed works in a better
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-04-08 13:25
Yes, it has been tried, there is a US patent on two rings "tied" together by a plastic strap, so that the rings are about an inch apart. I have one, but still prefer metals such as Bonade or more-secure plastics such as Luyben and Gigliotti. I'll find its number, I may have given it earlier, so please make a Search in our archives, such as by using "ring AND ligature", or use "O-ring". Re: the patent, it is expired [old] so you cannot infringe it or patent it again without significant improvement [not just using 3 rings]. There are many many pats on ligs, I'll also post a pat # having a long list of inventor names such as Bonade, Gig, Rovner etc. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-08 14:11
Yes, I've used O-rings as ligatures and for reed storage holders. As such, the ligature application is akin to the woven string ligature but if you use two O-rings more of a hassle to use. Clarinetists' searches for the perfect ligature always remind me of the quip about the dog searching for a corner in a roundhouse. As someone has said earlier "the thumb is the perfect ligature". Of course one has to decide which thumb to sacrifice.
Bob Draznik
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Author: pewd
Date: 2006-04-08 16:07
a) anybody has tried something like this
i'm seeing some of these start to pop up locally:
http://www.wwbw.com/Bois--Delrin--Ligatures-i159088.music
i haven't tried one yet. i imagine quick switches from Bb to A in symphonic music would be difficult with such a ligature - need to be able to switch quick without displacing the reed.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-08 17:07
I sometimes wonder how much difference a ligature makes. I've gone between the Rovner dark and the Bonade for years and honestly can't tell too much of a difference in either feel or sound (my perception or recorded). I've heard that people who have played for a while have a concept of what they should sound like, which forces them to subconsciously adapt their embouchure even if they make a radical mouthpiece or reed change, so that in the end their sound doesn't change.
I've been through Baermann III, Rose 40, and Jeanjean 16 with no appreciable difficulties using the O-rings. More results when I finish making the rails.
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-08 17:09
By the way, call me strange but I'm not terribly interesting in getting a patent for any of my work. If I did, it would just be to prevent other people from profiting from my ideas that I'd rather give away. The process is a little more expensive than I care to indulge in.
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2006-04-08 22:45
The ligature really affects the sound in my opinion, btu I do find that less is more! I use the reverse Bonade ligature right now and find that it really contributes to my sound and playing. (I have used a Vandoren leather and optimum and the "ultimate" in the past, and of course the normal metal variety).
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2006-04-08 23:09
Quote:
I sometimes wonder how much difference a ligature makes. I find from my limited experiences that there are very slight differences in ligatures. I can tell a difference between ligatures when I use the same mouthpiece/reed combination, and I DO match up certain ligatures with certain mouthpieces, but overall, the choice of ligature has never been a make or break point with me. I can get the same notes, the same articulation, the same dynamics, the same tone, etc. with any ligature. However I do find that on certain mouthpieces, one ligature will allow me a little easier control over it.
Alexi
PS - I've also done the rubber o-ring ligature, and also own a Bois ligature.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Aussiegirl
Date: 2006-04-10 07:01
<i>My Bonade ligature failed recently, unexpectedly and completely...one loud crack and it was gone.</i>
:( Thats not fun! I just got a shiny new one and if it died i swear id cry....
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-10 12:27
As for singular band-style ligatures, I've seen Ripamonti do a line of semi-flexible ligature/bands on their site - though they look good in theory, but are they good in practice - do they stay put if you're changing from Bb to A without the lot coming off (with only a few bars to change)?
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-04-10 13:58
I've been using the Pyne string ligature for a few months now and really like the convenience. I just slip it over the reed and I'm ready. It also allows for more of those Klezmer slurs. Formerly I was using the BG Super Revelation exclusively.
I tried the rings once and they had the same result as the Pyne string.
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Author: Markael
Date: 2006-04-10 14:04
Once I accidentally left my fancy Eddie Daniels ligature out of my case. I had to teach clarinet lessons.
I happen to keep oversized rubber bands in my music studio. I wrapped one around the reed and mouthpiece. It worked fine.
When all is said and done, the job of a ligature is to hold the reed on the mouthpiece.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-10 14:39
Same here,Brenda. I find it interesting how I switch back and forth over time. For some reason I got tired of screwing and unscrewing trad ligatures as I auditioned different mps. Pyne's the answer.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Yellowhornblower
Date: 2006-04-10 14:58
Dear Cuisle,
I agree with Sean that ligatures matter (a lot) because of the pressure it puts on a reed.
I use a Pomarico Jazz* mouthpiece, but have had a hard time finding a ligature that, for one thing, fits it and, second, sounds good with it.
I have got by with a Rovner lig, but hated its ugly look. But last week, when I was shopping for new reeds, I saw the Vandoren Optimum ligature and tried it.
What an invention! This ligature has three plates that produce three different tones on the same clarinet, mouthpiece, and reed: one is dark and focused; one is bright and easy-blowing; and the last one is very expressive (jazzy) as it allows a read to vibrate more freely.
Not only does the Optimum lig work on my Pormarico mouthpiece, it has enable me to produce the tones that I like in different settings.
So, ligatures matter as much as a mouthpiece and a reed.
Hope that helps.
My profile can be viewed at www.thangthecolumnist.blogspot.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leblanc Sonata clarinet and a Yamaha YSS-475 soprano sax
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Author: Bnewbs
Date: 2006-04-10 16:06
"So, ligatures matter as much as a mouthpiece and a reed."
I beg to differ, ligatures certainly have an effect, but like the reed or especially the mouthpiece.
Black electrical tape has worked well for me in a pinch. I like it better than a Rovner dark, not as good as string or BG though. VD Klassik string ligature is what I like best. It works like a Pyne (its synthetic nylon thread, not natural thread) but has two adjustable knots so you can be tighten or loosen it, which also means it will last for years. It doesnt quite have the projection or response of a Bonade or similar, but the tone and ease of style change makes it wonderful.
Ben
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-11 03:44
:( Thats not fun! I just got a shiny new one and if it died i swear id cry....
Don't worry Aussiegirl.....I've played on mine for quite a few years......when you spend time in a military band your ligature gets a work-out since you are constantly packing and unpacking for numerous rehearsals and gigs every day.
Interestingly enough, the bonade didn't break at the screws (where they normally do) but right by the plate that holds the reed (its inverted).
-Randy
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-11 10:11
Has anybody ever done some formal, double-blind comparisons of ligatures. These would be one of the easiest facets of an instrument to test rigorously.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-04-11 11:01
"Has anybody ever done some formal, double-blind comparisons of ligatures."
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "formal, double-blind". I have done some blind comparisons, but only between a few ligatures - shoe lace, BG fabric/leather (I don't know what it is), Vandoren Optimum, Vandoren Master.
How accurate could such a comparison really be, since isn't more a test of what ligature most people would think sounds best? If I (and I'm sure many others too) made decisions based on the majority then I wouldn't listen to most music I listen to, I wouldn't play the clarinet I play and I wouldn't do a lot of what I do.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-11 13:59
Formal, as in formal testing, monitored by people formally trained in proper, reliable testing techniques.
Double blind, as in the neither the players nor the listeners, or even anybody having any contact with the above, have any idea which ligatures were being used in each of many play testings until after the results are analysied and declared,
Any other form of testing carries almost zero validity, because the human mind is so easily influenced by a wide range of factors, without even knowing it is being influenced. An example of this is that our minds are still deceived by optical illusions, even when we KNOW our minds are being deceived.
Or something like that. I am no expert.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2006-04-11 14:07
So much for just going into a store and picking out a clarinet you like! I used to joke that you should pick your equipment and then convince yourself that you sound great......I realize now that this is not so far off the mark. It all about your brain.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-11 18:34
Remember the rule about first impressions......something that looks ugly whe you first see it probably won't "sound" or "feel" very good when you first play-test it (I'll get into trouble for this one, but think saxophone...)
This is what I mean when I talk about conventional wisdom not necessarily being so wise. Gordon is correct in suggesting blinded tests. The trouble comes about because a lot of the cherished notions in our craft are more opinion than scientifically tested fact.
-Randy
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2006-04-11 23:38
There was an article in the Boston Globe about a month ago about first impressions. The gist of it was that your gut reaction is more accurate than you might expect. We tend to overthink things to our detriment. The article as I remember it suggested doing the research and then let it settle in. After this let your gut reaction rule. I thought it was a good article but that was only my first impression.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-12 09:49
I just like to know when I am being deceived by the fervour of others, including myself. Then I can choose whether to be deceived or not.
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-12 13:48
I spend a lot of my working life telling people that they're wrong.....In science it is sometimes amazing how much a set of cherished notions that people have because they heard someone say it when they were in training can color a person's view of reality, and these are some of the best scientists in the world, who should know better than to introduce such biases in their work.
I have a sign above my desk, "Conventional Wisdom Sometimes Ain't So Wise".
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Author: Merlin
Date: 2006-04-12 14:12
"There was an article in the Boston Globe about a month ago about first impressions. The gist of it was that your gut reaction is more accurate than you might expect. We tend to overthink things to our detriment. The article as I remember it suggested doing the research and then let it settle in. After this let your gut reaction rule. I thought it was a good article but that was only my first impression."
Are you sure you're not over thinking this one John?
j/k !!
I agree that the gut reaction is pretty darn accurate.
As far as ligs on clarinet go - I like the type that don't slip off when you swap your piece from Bb to A.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-12 15:03
I really like the "blinded" testing idea. Being able to see is sometimes detrimental to decision making. Yes, I recall the admonition about conventional wisdom from grad school many years ago. Fads come and go and rules for decision making are no exception. Just keep those blinders on.
Bob Draznik
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2006-04-12 22:04
-- "Double blind, as in the neither the players nor the listeners, or even anybody having any contact with the above, have any idea which ligatures were being used in each of many play testings until after the results are analysied and declared,
Any other form of testing carries almost zero validity, because the human mind is so easily influenced by a wide range of factors, without even knowing it is being influenced. An example of this is that our minds are still deceived by optical illusions, even when we KNOW our minds are being deceived." --
Not just ligatures. How about the clarinets themselves?
Wasn't it Tom Ridenour that carried out this type of survey for wood vs plastic?
Steve
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-12 22:09
I know he did for the rubber clarinets he's been selling lately....I'm really intrigued by the A, and since I'm currently A-less I'm considering giving it a shot when (and if) my wife ever lets me have the use of a grand or so. I do wonder , though, if it's going to be turning green like my mp.
-Randy
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-04-13 05:42
Of course don't expect a test between rubber and wood clarinets to be serious, when the person doing it is the one making the rubber clarinets!
Have you ever seen a test/survey sponsored by one company, and the results leaned in favor of the other?! I haven't.
Post Edited (2006-04-13 05:43)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-13 13:06
"Have you ever seen a test/survey sponsored by one company, and the results leaned in favor of the other?! I haven't"
Neither have I. But that could be mainly because the results which are bad simply are not published.
Double blind tests on flutes suggested that the acoustic scientists were correct: that the material of the body was irrelevant.
But seemingly nowhere more than in the flute world does the notion, "The more it costs, the better it is," have a stronger hold.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2006-04-13 13:48
In a double blindfolded test would you get decisive answers for a ligature? ie. Isn't it possible the tester likes A and C and the listeners like B and D? Beyond that what happens when you substitute different listeners? Would the results be different?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-13 14:00
Arnoldstang wrote:
> In a double blindfolded test would you get decisive answers for
> a ligature? ie. Isn't it possible the tester likes A and C
> and the listeners like B and D?
That's not the purpose; the purpose is to determine if there is a statistically significant audible difference between the different ligatures (A always identified as A, B always identified as B, etc.). There's a host of other problems to solve before even a double blind test can be relevant (how many ligatures? Fatigue? Staccato? Legato? Selection of notes? Volume?)
Subjective characteristics is a different problem.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2006-04-13 17:42
So we're not determining whether something sounds better? If that's the case why bother? Is it so you don't waste money on a product that isn't substantially sonically different?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-13 17:59
Arnoldstang wrote:
> So we're not determining whether something sounds better?
How can you? "Sounds better" is completely subjective - does Pete Fountain "sound better" than Jon Manasse? Is it germane to discovering if ligatures make a significant difference?
> If that's the case why bother?
Because it allows you to know something rather than just believe something. Which is what experimentation is about.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2006-04-13 21:39
So the definitive answer on ligatures is what? What do we know?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-13 21:54
'What do we know?'
They hold the reed on the mp so that it can be easily adjusted and removed.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2006-04-14 03:24
I guess most of the stuff in my head is what I believe not what I know. I don't have a problem with this. I keep on revising my beliefs. My beliefs are backed up with experience, feelings, reasoning and many things. For the most part my beliefs aren't just arrived at arbitrarily. Regarding Mark's..."Is it germane to discovering if ligatures make a significant difference"....Perhaps it was slightly tangential but.... Wow...after all these years of clarinet playing and pedagogy do we not know if a ligature makes a difference? If we have to have a test to determine this I think we don't know much more than what Bob D. says...."They hold the reed on the mp so it can be easily adjusted and removed"
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-14 04:05
The main thing that makes me wonder is how much of it is psychological? If you have a bright shiny lig or a fabric lig with metal inserts do you think you'll project more? If so, will that affect your perception of your sound? Will you do things differently in expectation? Will the price change these things?
If we could cover the ligature area with some sort of veil so the player (and listener) wouldn't be able to tell what ligature was being used could we use this as a test?
I played Luyben plastic ligs for years until I got tired of carrying a spare for when the screws strip out of the plastic, switching to Rovner's original model because I was lazy and then to Bonade when I was bored. I noticed no real difference in my sound or projection, although I do play on a hard reed/medium close opening set-up, which is pretty insensitive to changes.
By the way, the o-rings are doing an admirable job, and I used them tonight for their first public performance.
-Randy
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-14 13:27
I think you've got a pretty good handle(oops, O-ring) on the subject,Randy.
I'm inclined to think that we change ligatures to compensate for other variables that crop up....some or all of which....we can't really positively identify all the time. A new reed(same as the old reed...haha) may cause us to try a different lig. A cold coming on may weaken our "aura" so we'll try a different lig....or a reed which will then make us try etc etc....
Bob Draznik
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-14 13:30
Just an added thought: I do believe, based on experience, that an all metal ligature allows/causes a perception of a brighter sound. Perhaps the more solid connection results in mouthpiece vibrations that excite our teeth and bone structure.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-15 05:28
You may have something there, Bob. The perception of my sound changes substantial when playing double-lipped v. single-lipped, though I haven't had a single person (even musicians) tell me that I sounded differently.
-Randy
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