 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: chazman
Date: 2006-03-30 10:59
Good morning,
For years I have treated the bores of my clarinets with standard LeBlanc bore oil. I recently read in a posting a message the use of almond oil. I have three question concerning this pratice: who out there has tried this, what success have you had, and is this your super-market variety almond oil being used.
Thank in advance for your assistance.
Chuck
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-03-30 11:05
I don't have an answer but I hope you don't mind that I add another question on the same subject pretty much.
Some people, including the maker of the clarinet I play, recommend not to oil the bore at all. Does anyone know what is the reason for this?
Thanks.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-03-30 11:23
If you employ the SEARCH function at the top of this page, and enter "almond oil" "bore oil" and "oil" you will find extensive discussions previously held on the topic.
The important aspect of bore oiling is to apply it sparingly, particularly if the clarinet is fully assembled. Using too much will leave an accretion layer in the toneholes, which can wreak havoc on the smallest openings.
In short - a little goes a long way.
The use of nut oils makes a great deal of sense for items that come in contact with the mouth. The leBlanc oil is a petroleum distillate and may be so volatile as to leave a taste, and evaporate rapidly.
****
I use a small chamois (old and tired - the cloth I mean) suffused in Almond or Walnut oil. The cloth should be soaked and wrung out, so that it does not drip oil as it hangs. If packed tightly in the bore, a fine layer will be deposited.
I oil the bore if it looks dry. Most modern clarinets hjave a mirror-smooth finish and that's what I look to restore.
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Author: corks&pads
Date: 2006-03-30 12:00
There are (at least) two ways of looking at oiling wooden clarinets. Here are the short comments. As noted, there is much more to this discussion in the archives.
One is the regular, roughly annual, maintenance of instruments that have been well cared for since new. The objective of this is to preserve the original condition of the wood as it came from the factory.
The other is the restoration of instruments which have spent many years in the closet (hopefully), or the basement (maybe good...maybe not so good), or the attic (usually not good). The objective here is to try to restore compatible oils to wood with cells that have dried out excessively--without overloading them.
Mineral oil is cheaper than sweet almond or walnut oil, and it probably does as good a job protecting the wood of new instruments for several years. Over the long run, though, I'd clearly favor the latter two.
This is an area where science collides with craft, art, and opinion. It's a balancing act of which oil will look best v. the one that's least acidic v. the one that dries more than the next, etc.
In the case of instruments that are relatively new (say...10 years or less) it's probably safe to say that less is better when it comes to applying oil; that some is better than none; and that any of the above oils are better than none at all.
Past that 10-15 year mark (a totally arbitrary estimate), what kind of oil treatment the wood needs becomes pretty subjective. That's where experience with wood (or good luck) come in.
One of the best bits of lifetime advice that I ever got came to me as a young man from an old cowboy. When I asked which of two types of equipment was better, he replied, "Waaallll ... dif'rent people sez dif'rent thangs." That's how most stuff in life is.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-03-30 12:45
I have used sweet almond oil. The problem with it, as I have experienced, is that despite putting vitamin E in it and keeping it in a relatively dark and cool environment it still eventually gets (somewhat?) rancid. I actually don't know that that has any bad effect on the wood. As a result I use Doc's oil as my regular bore oil.
Bob Draznik
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-03-30 13:36
(Disclaimer- I sell plant derived oil for wood and applicators)
As mentioned there have been many long discussions - check the past history in threads - about whether to oil or not oil and what type of oil to use.
A general rule of thumb is that if the bore oil that you use is clear and colorless it is probably petroleum based mineral oil. The famous manufacturers, although they sell this mineral oil as bore oil, do not use mineral oil in the manufacture of instruments. My experience and testing indicates that petroleum based products should not be used on wood for the long term. You instrument was originally impregnated with a plant derived oil formulation at the factory and that is what I believe you should try to duplicate for subsequent oiling. The factory plant derived oil was not almond oil or walnut oil. I have verified the oil formulation used by several major manufacturers, but with the understanding that I will not publish it. My oil formulation is also proprietary.
If you use almond oil you should be aware that it is very prone to autoxidation and turns rancid easily. Vitamin E is a good antioxidant in animal fat systems but a rather poor antioxidant in plant derived oils. There are classes of very powerful plant oil antioxidants that should be used. My own quality control testing indicates that with the use of proper antioxidants that plant derived oil mixtures (and mixtures must also include a suitable emulsifier to keep the oils in solution) will remain stable and not turn rancid over a long period of time (my history is 7 years). My antioxidant mixture is also proprietary. To debunk another old legend -- the proper plant derived oil mixture will penetrate and be readily absorbed by Grenadilla wood - proven by experimentation.
My recommendation is to apply a thin coat of oil - if you oil - and let it stand overnight to be absorbed. If there is oil on the surface of the wood after the overnight period it should be removed with a clean swab and you are done. If all of the oil is absorbed the process is repeated until oil remains on the wood surface. Each piece of wood is different in its oil retention and loss characteristics and you should monitor each section of you clarinet to note drying out - usually indicated by a dull gray color rather than shiny black.
L. Omar Henderson
The Doctor's Products
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-03-30 13:56
Likely a V G choice, Bob. I inherited an old small, darkened, bottle of A O, which had and still has a modest odor, I still use it sparingly on my best woods, like, as has been said, once or twice a year. I discussed these oils with a chemist friend, who knew of sources, and he gave me a [clear] bottle of both A O and apricot oil so I dont know of its antioxiding additives. I have wrapped the bottles in Al foil and keep in a refrigerator and they seem to have survived. I know I should at least try Doc LOH's bore oil for any comparison I can make, and hope he may "chime in" here with his sage comments. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: hans
Date: 2006-03-30 14:55
chazman,
Re: "Some people, including the maker of the clarinet I play, recommend not to oil the bore at all. Does anyone know what is the reason for this?"
My guess is that it helps to sell instruments, since the non-oiled instruments may tend to crack more/sooner.
Synonymous Botch,
Re: "The use of nut oils makes a great deal of sense for items that come in contact with the mouth."
I wonder if that might be a problem for people who are allergic to nuts?
My approach is the same: oil it as needed to maintain the shine.
Hans
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-03-30 15:04
(Disclaimer - I sell a plant derived bore oil and applicators)
Historically oils such as almond, walnut, apricot, etc. have been used on wooden instruments and there is some justification for using "nut" oils as a wood preservative. I started out going to museums and cathedrals, etc., (because of my international work schedule) and talking with the conservators of wood artifacts to see what products they used, or had been used over the centuries to preserve wooden artifacts. After a while a common thread of ingredients emerged as well as the sources and processing techniques used to produce the components.
Many of the same "named" products available today were produced by different methods and had contaminants or unrefined elements in olden times that are not found today because of our modern processing techniques. Indeed it is some of these removed contaminants which gave the ingredients longevity in old times due to natural antioxidants co-processed with the oils. As it turns out the historical making of wooden instruments impregnated with the oils circumvented the need for added antioxidants and current manufacturing oil impregnation uses oils that are not as subject to oxidation and turning rancid.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2006-03-30 15:25
How do you know when (if) a clarinet needs oiling? Can it be inferred from lack of beading of water (saliva+condensate) in the bore?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-03-30 15:48
Different pieces of wood and the degree and type of bore burnishing make interpreting water patterns difficult. If one can generalize it would be that the bore, if it was originally black and shiny, is now dull and greyish in color is an indication to me that it is time IMO to oil. The most prominent wood, needing oil is directly below the barrel but again, each piece of wood is different and should be inspected periodically.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-03-30 17:40
Although much of the "water" that runs down the bore of a clarinet is condensation some of it is saliva and although most of that probably gets removed with swabbing I have reason to believe that some remains and am of the opinion that periodic cleaning prior to oiling is not a bad idea. Smokers have an added problem.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2006-03-31 00:33
By Google you can search this topic.
http://www.recorderhomepage.net/wood.html
Many professionals use almond or olive oil, not mineral oils. You may be able to search what Mr.Ridenour says about this on Klarinet archive.
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Author: nickma
Date: 2006-03-31 20:58
Almond oil works great for me, especially in restoration where wood has dried out. I have excellent experience of almond oil in these circumstances, it's thin enough to be absorbed, but thick enough to make a real difference.
Nick
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-03-31 21:08
But how long is it before the oil rancidifies and makes the clarinet stink?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-03-31 21:46
(Disclaimer - I sell a plant derived oil for wood and application apparatus)
The major problem when oils autoxidize is not the smell but they also become acidic and can actually cause damage to the wood.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: mtague
Date: 2006-03-31 21:57
If one has an instrument that has been treated with a nut oil and it starts to smell or acidify (or the owner is worried that it will), are there measures the person can take to counteract this or reduce potential damage?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-03-31 21:58
Question: Can oil that has been absorbed by wood become rancid at all?
I know that wood contains a whole lot of "self-preservatives", and I also know that we have an unvarnished kitchen table that is religiously olive-oiled 'bout twice a year, and the wood looks better every year.
--
Ben
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-03-31 22:20
(Disclaimer - I sell a wood cleaner for instruments)
In order to remove randid oil one could use a wood cleaner designed for wooden instruments or a lot of people - according to posts - use Murphy's Oils soap designed for hardwood floors. The trick is not to leech out too much oil out of the wood in the cleaning process and to replace oil after cleaning thoroughly. Another benefit of cleaning is to remove the gunk formed when oil in the wood combines with dust and air pollutants and clogs the pores of the wood and does not allow it to "breathe" and adequately exchange moisture.
Ben, olive oil - especially extra virgin - has a lot of natural antioxidants and is less processed than almond oil. Olive oil has been used for years to keep wooden kitchen utensils from drying out and cracking. Almond oil is especially prone to autoxidize and turn rancid and even addition of Vitamin E (a poor plant oil antioxidant anyway) often does not help. Autoxidation in wood does proceed at a slower rate than just oil in a bottle or exposed to a lot of air probabably because it is not exposed to as much oxygen as in the former situations. The natural antioxidants in Grenadilla do protect its own form of oil pretty well. Almond oil in conjunction with other oils containing natural antioxidants and the addition of proper antioxidants can remain stable for long periods of time - my own experimentation.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: nickma
Date: 2006-04-01 06:44
Almond oil absorbed into the wood does not smell with age.
Havign said that I'm sure Omar's products are excellent for bore treatment on an ongoing basis, but there's nothing like almond oil for treating an old clarint that has been closeted for 20 years. After a 3-5 day soak, the residual oil is polished off, and there is no risk of taint.
Personally I use Professor (Anton) Weinberg's hydrophilic bore oil on an ongoing monthly basis, which is clearly lighter.
Nick
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Author: Lorileeblack
Date: 2017-10-18 23:07
I used olive oil at least 3 times without any problems. This first two times because i had no bore oil and this time because i used a older bottle of bore oil and it actually looked super dry after! So i thought the wood needed some serious moisture
Can bore oil get old & become ineffectve ?
Lori black
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-10-19 07:39
Yes, I've used a light application of almond oil to wood clarinets and oboes during a major overhaul and never had any problems or odors. Also, I've never cracked any of them. A long time ago, I made the mistake of using linseed oil on an oboe, as I knew that it is sometimes used for bassoons. The oboe became very dead in sound and was useless for about a week while the oil dried. Later, it fully recovered. Yet some say the material and condition of the tube does not affect the sound of an instrument, only the dimensions.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2017-10-19 08:07
I've used almond oil with a 5% addition of alcohol to improve penetration for quite a few years. I've never had problems with odour and I've never had a crack.
Tony F.
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Author: thereallukasj
Date: 2017-10-19 08:11
Just to throw this in... what about coconut oil? It seems to be a pretty popular trend for uses like skin care and eating but would this be applicable for clarinet bore oiling?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-19 10:03
The only thing not talked about is also oil the outside of the horn. Take the keys off of course. The reason is there is a very small chance that the inside bore can expand and not the outside. On very rare occasions the clarinet can crack. Very unlikely.
As for oils I haven't studied them too much, but oil such as olive oil will go bad. 2 or 3 month is about the length of time you should use olive oil for eating food. I'm not sure about other oils. Surely use rubber gloves when applying other forms of oil.
In normal climates I don't think you have to worry about this. I think it the rings on the bell and the rings on the joints of your horns start to wobble and fall off you may want to use the oil to prevent the wood from warping. Or use those Dampit things to add humidity to your horns. Do not put them inside the bores. Lay them next to your clarinets.
I just don't know for sure. Check the tuning before using any oil. If your horns are within range I'd probably just fix the rings that are falling off and forget about the oil. The oil WILL shrink the bores of your horns. Tuning may get messed up. Stuffy notes. All sorts of bad things can happen.
So this is the other side of looking at using bore oil.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-10-19 19:57
I've had sweet almond oil get sticky and gummy ... It also eventually disolved the rubber bulb on an eye dropper.
I've now use "The Doctor's" oil ... might be better stuff out there ... but I've had no issues ...
Tom
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2017-10-20 04:35
I use the Doctor's oil mainly because it's a product that was thought about carefully with clarinets in mind, and that means I don't have to think as hard. I look at my clarinet bores occasionally and oil them when they don't look like shiny acoustically effective tubes...about once a year (but of my 3 wood Bb clarinets, one of them gets the most playing time and seems to need oiling most often).
An important point is where you live, and people who never have had a crack probably don't live in Arizona, or play outdoors in the heat of summer or depths of winter. I live in California and don't worry, but use a plastic clarinet when playing Farmer's Markets or block parties in the summer.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2017-10-20 09:36
I know a player who used olive oil every year since 1932 when he purchased a Selmer BT brand new and it turned foul and had a terrible odor. What a mistake.
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Author: dubrosa22
Date: 2017-10-24 04:10
Wooden flute and recorder players swear by sweet almond oil. Preferably with a vitamin E additive to help reduce oxidisation (ie, going rancid).
Olive oil was the choice back in the 18th and 19th century apparently.
V
Post Edited (2017-10-24 04:10)
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2017-10-24 08:50
I use a brand-new bottle of the cheapest extra-virgin olive oil I can find to do bore oiling operations. Fresh olive oil has a distinctive aroma and I don't use oil that doesn't smell absolutely fresh. This keeps the wood happy and odour free.
Anecdotally...I did use a brand new bottle of sweet almond oil last year to do some bore oiling, but the oil turned rancid in short order after application, resulting in a funky-smelling clarinet. Perhaps the oil, which was in a clear glass bottle, was lightstruck and broke down while sitting around at the grocery.
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Author: michele zukovsky
Date: 2017-10-24 11:37
it is good.
go to whole foods and get sweet almond oil...awesome.
michele
michelezukovsky@gmail.com
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