 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-03-20 18:57
Ah, the delicate artistic temperament -- what a wuss! (the plaintiff, that is).
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen (or the orchestra) --- I'm sure there are plenty of fine out-of-work violinists ready to take the plaintiff's chair, most of whom are undoubtedly tough enough to handle criticism. In the 'real' world where I exist, if the worker and the boss don't get along, the worker either quits on his own, or eventually gets fired. The lawyers don't get involved.
I'm surprised the plaintiff doesn't sue his parents for raising him improperly (failing to train him for the emotional rigors of life). Jeez..........
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-03-20 19:02
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> Ah, the delicate artistic temperament -- what a wuss! (the
> plaintiff, that is).
So easy to jump to conclusions, isn't it.
Let's see what the reality is before we go off the deep end, shall we?
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2006-03-20 19:51
I believe the Seattle Symphony withdrew from the American Federation of Musicians years ago. The members of the Orchestra therefore have very little protection from any abuses, real or imagined.
It is my feeling that professional musicians can be protected and better served by a strong, and active Musicians Union.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-03-20 19:54
I'm not protected by a union either, and I've been laid off twice, once when my wife was 7 months pregnant with our first-born daughter. Life's a bitch. I have little sympathy for the violinist, I'm afraid. Sorry, Mark.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-03-20 20:05
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> I'm not protected by a union either, and I've been laid off
> twice, once when my wife was 7 months pregnant with our
> first-born daughter. Life's a bitch.
Yup. I've been laid off a couple of times, not so long ago, with two kids in college.
> I have little sympathy
> for the violinist, I'm afraid. Sorry, Mark.
I'm sorry you're so quick to pass blame with no knowledge of what the circumstances are. I admit I'm clueless as to what really happened, but I've seen real discrimination in the workplace for both women and physically/mentally challenged people, including my baby sister who has Down syndrome.
Next time I'll just tell her "Life's a bitch. Suck it up."
Yeah, right.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-03-20 21:51
Well, Mark, we are given a link to an article, which we assume is relatively factual, probably in order to elicit opinions (is this not so, Ken?). I have no intention of researching every aspect of this 'case' in order to thoroughly and fairly 'arbitrate' it and "pass blame" (your words, not mine). Maybe the guy has a legit gripe, maybe not -- but I'm tired of people who spend their lives self-analyzing their stress levels and getting wrapped up in their anxieties and complaining about their emotional distress. This is not a case of a physically or mentally-disabled/challenged person who would have legitimate cause to complain. AS I READ IT, the violinist is a whiner, pure and simple. And Americans, as a people, are far too quick to go to the courts (or the school systems, or the Federal government, or whatever institution) to take responsibility for their individual welfare and well-being, rather than taking it upon themselves. I shall say no more. The empathic readers on our BB can take it from here.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-03-20 22:02
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> Maybe
> the guy has a legit gripe, maybe not.
...
> AS I READ IT, the violinist is a
> whiner, pure and simple.
Which appears to me to be a contradiction. A "legit gripe" does not make a "whiner". At this point there's been no mention of what has transpired prior to the lawsuit.
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Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2006-03-20 22:43
Since this legal action is reported in the media, it is grist for reader opinion. I think it is a "lose-lose" situation for both sides in sensational publicity. Alleged discrimination rears its ugly head everywhere, even in the symphony.
I encountered discrimination of gender and race once in a while in the old Air Force. Never had anyone pleased to bring charges or rebut them in the service. The rumor fan tended to cover everyone involved with foul stuff, by the way.
This violin player has a right to protest working conditions and deserves his day in court.
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Author: lowclarinetman
Date: 2006-03-21 00:28
Look, Conductors can get WAY out of line. I am a professional musician. I do the job, I play in tune, all the notes, and style, plus a little musiciality.
The orchestra I play in is in mexico. we have no protection, no union, little job security, blah blah.
My group brings in a well known Mexican conductor every couple of months to guest conduct. He is talented, but somewhat off-color. His remarks can be hostile.
Two visits ago, he was having a bad week, sick and had picked a challenging program(ginestra Variations Concertantes.. REALLY hard clarinet part!!!!!) And he wanted out of it and i became the scape goat. Before I go into this, I want to say that I have NO problems with negative comments of my playing. I have very little problems with anything that severs to make the music better. But, personal attacks are out of line.
That particular week for no reason he called me, in front of the entire orchestra, "A faggot, pedafile, and other worse things i have blocked." I was too in schosk to do anything then, i wish i had. But, I will not let it happen to me again.. ever.
The last time he was here, i did not get the bad end of the verbal stick, however the principal horn player did. And he left and refuses to play with that conductor ever again. He still plays in the orchestra just not the weeks that this conductor comes.
I think if i am ever verbally abused in front of my peers in my JOB again I will do everything in my power to make sure whoever is doing it, DEEPLY regrets it.
I do the job, I am not there to be abused, and everyone should be able to work in their jobs without this sort of harrasement.
i was unable to read the article, but this is just my experience with over-the-top conductors.
best regards,
bob hoit
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Author: hans
Date: 2006-03-21 00:53
More information would be useful, but the fact that the concert master was also terminated looks like it could be a clue to the nature of the problem.
When someone has worked for an organization for ~25 years, it implies that performance has been satisfactory.
One of the 5 most important functions of a manager is motivating people, which requires understanding how to get along with ALL of the workers.
In the "real world", the cost of dismissing a worker that a manager can't get along with (or is prejudiced against) can be very high. This cost consists of the difference between target performance and the new/replacement employee's actual performance while he or she is on the learning curve, plus training, plus severance pay, plus loss of knowledge, etc. Morale in the rest of the organization may be affected too, if the termination is believed to be arbitrary or unfair by the colleagues of the dismissed worker, leading to further losses in productivity.
Hans
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Author: Markael
Date: 2006-03-21 01:27
I tend to agree with Mark C.
I'll admit that my first gut reaction was to side with the plaintiff. Maybe I, too, jumped to conclusions. However--
Dave, your initial response reminded me of the scene from the movie "Patton," where the general humiliated the shell-shocked soldier.
Things aren't always what they seem.
My wife works with a special needs class for children at our church. She got into that role because our daughter, who died just after she turned 16, had Down Syndrome.
Recently my wife attended a conference on special needs, and the speaker related an incident that occurred in a restaurant with his autistic daughter. The daugher, reacting to stimuli in the restaurant, began exhibiting loud and uncontrollable behavior that forced the family to leave the restaurant. As they walked out, people gave them dirty looks, as if to say, "Can't you control your child?"
When my wife related the story to me, I remarked that we never had that kind of problems. When our daughter displayed behavior problems people were understanding of our situation. My wife replied, "That's because she looked handicapped."
Post Edited (2006-03-21 09:59)
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-03-21 03:13
Bob Hoit: any conductor who mistakes a clarinet for a bassoon ought to be booted out of the orchestral world.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-03-21 05:54
When wacky criticism comes my way, I find it a very valuable skill to take it in stride. If you are secure in your competence as a musician, the ensemble should realize that the conductor is just being crazy. Nobody need get upset by the conductor's yelling (for matters other than horribly wasted time) except the conductor.
It's the difference between taking it personally -- being hurt by it, and holding up your hands to your section in confusion, with a mouthed "what the?"
Having seen a conductor yell repeatedly at a musician for not playing his part correctly when in reality the part didn't match the score and he was playing his page perfectly, I realize that the things coming from the podium sometimes don't match reality.
Where appropriate, I will lately shout out exactly why something went wrong when unwarranted comments are directed my way. (e.g. "so it's twice as fast at rehearsal A now?" or "I need more than a half second to switch from bass to Eb" or "No, I don't have any notes to play in this section" or "we don't know bar numbers in the middle of a tacet"). This way, communication is directed toward "let's fix the problem" rather than "hey you in the back, you're an idiot."
Granted, that tends to piss off some conductors, but at least it turns into an "I'm rubber and you're glue" situation when the shouting begins.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: D
Date: 2006-03-21 16:50
Again, not knowing any details of the case but commenting on employment in general:
I believe that a person should be mentally and physically capable of carrying out a job for which they have applied. It is only reasonable for an employer to make a certain level of adaptation for an employee. For example, I would consider it reasonable for an employer to have to provide an erganomically designed keyboard and mouse for an office worker with a shoulder impairment - even if they applied for the job with said impairment. I would not consider it reasonable for someone to apply for a job which involved heavy lifting, who was unable to walk. Or who had a recurrent bad back.
Although we cannot really comment about either side of this particular case as we have little information, I wouldn't have said that orchestral playing was a particularly sensible job for someone who had problems partially triggered by that type of stress. Even the nicest orchestra in the world is going to have very stressful points and all the players will operate under great pressure a lot of the time - that's the way the industry works. That is a bit like me taking a job on a boat when I am really disturbed by water.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-03-21 18:12
1981...plaintiff entered Seattle Sym.
1983...G.Schwarz appointed Director
1985...plaintiff says harassment began
2006...lawsuit
Off hand it seems like the plaintiff is claiming he suffered for 21 years before taking legal action.
Bob Draznik
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-03-21 18:19
21 years should be plenty of time to find another (hopefully lower-stress) gig, one would think.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-03-21 20:32
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> 21 years should be plenty of time to find another (hopefully
> lower-stress) gig, one would think.
Then again, put a frog in a pot of water, turn on the heat, and the frog won't notice it's being cooked ... unless it jumps out & jumps back in ...
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-03-21 21:15
True, Mark, but if the frog files a lawsuit against the guy who has turned up the heat, then the frog has most assuredly noticed........
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2006-03-23 01:59
Isn't there someone from Seattle here who can provide some more info? I'm sure there is more to the story than is in the newspaper article.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2006-03-23 02:06
Perhaps he doesn't want to make himself obvious in a written forum.
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2006-03-24 01:12
I have suggested that my string playing acquaintance from the Seattle Symphony comment here and hope that he does. However, if he does not, don't feel too much sympathy for Mr. Peter Kaman.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
Post Edited (2006-03-24 01:13)
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Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2006-03-24 18:05
I think there is such a thing as "the straw that broke the camel's back." In this player versus conductor situation, that last straw resulted in a lawsuit. This is a much better arena to resolve grievances than others, with points of law instead of pointed guns.
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