 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tnclarinetist
Date: 2006-03-17 23:56
Ever since I've been playing on my RC Prestige the intonation has been awkward. From the below staff d to the open g is extremely flat, the middle b up to e is sharper than natural, and from a on up is also extremely flat. Since I play on a Richard Hawkins mouthpiece, I took my question about my intonation to the man himself- who was giving a masterclass at Converse College.
On the Monday night session of the maserclass he was talking about his mouthpieces and allowed people to try them out, and he was also working on any old ones and allowed anyone to ask questions. I asked him about the situation and he told me that it wasn't his mouthpiece, it is the instrument itself. He said that the Vandoren B45s were made they had the intonation tendencies above and the company made the Prestige with the B45 in order to compensate. He recommends that I take it to a specialist so they can take wood out of it and it will play more accurately. My teacher was really worried when I told him because he said once the wood is gone, it's gone. Does anyone know a specialist who is able to do this? My teacher suggested Tim Clark (in Ohio I believe) because he worked with Buffet clarinets.
Does anyone that plays (or has played) an RC Prestige come across this problem? Should I just switch to a B45?
Thanks
tn.
NG
Post Edited (2006-03-18 00:00)
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Author: Merlin
Date: 2006-03-18 01:49
Why don't you try a B45 and see if it helps? Much cheaper than having custom work done.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-03-18 04:13
Form a dialog with Dave Spiegenthal from this site.
In his words, you can tune a Buffet, but you can't tune a tuna.
Bob Phillips
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-03-18 04:47
I'd also look for a second opinion. It is likely that a mouthpiece maker is biased towards his own products.
Mouthpieces can do some weird things about intonation so it is definitely worth it trying differnet ones.
Good luck.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2006-03-18 08:16
I play an RC prestige myself. This advise does seem rather drastic. As Clarinbass said:
"Mouthpieces can do some weird things about intonation"
I found my RC prestige a little sharp overall. The Vandoren 13 series has been quite good in this regard.
Its probably wiser to be a little conservative and change the mpc rather than mess around with the instrument.
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Author: clarinut
Date: 2006-03-18 08:33
hi. i have had my clarinets re-bored by backun in vancouver. it is not needed on all instruments, or even most, but it does help in some cases. also, wood can in fact be put back in if it is ever taken out. this is done by putting a sleeve in the bore. it makes a huge difference on my horns. to each his own! cn
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2006-03-18 09:35
＞I found my RC prestige a little sharp overall.
Tuning is different from one country to another.
US and England: A=440Hz
France:A=442Hz
Japan:A=442Hz
Germany:Different from orchetra to orchestra
Berlin: Very,very,higher than 442.
If RC, originally designed to A=442Hz, has not been redesigned for A=440Hz, a 442Hz clarinet plus a 440Hz mouthpiece, may give an odd result. I heard from a dealer totally different scale design should be done for different pitch even the difference is only 2Hz.
I use a Greg Smith mouthpiece tuned to A=442Hz clarinet:he clarifies in his web page that the tuning of mouthpieces should be given by the purchaser.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2006-03-18 11:22
Hiroshi said;
"If RC, originally designed to A=442Hz, has not been redesigned for A=440Hz, a 442Hz clarinet plus a 440Hz mouthpiece, may give an odd result."
I think this is what I have done. I suspect my Clar is better at 442. Yet when I play with a B45 13 series designed for A=440 the scale has been very even and intune. A friend who plays with me has an R13. I suspect tuned at A=440. She uses the same mouthpiece and has to be careful not to play flat.
My feeling is use whatever works and if it doesn't.... then make it.
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Author: tnclarinetist
Date: 2006-03-18 12:44
Thanks for your comments everyone. Does anyone recommend another mouthpiece other than the Van. B45 or M30? I was interested in a Peter Eaton. Some people said that it is somewhat higher in pitch than A=440Hz and might help- but the price!
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-03-18 15:23
I just spent half an hour checking the tuning on my "Classic" Buffet. It is an F-series horn, tuned to F (French) pitch of A442. I play in the States, trying to tune to A440.
I played middle C, got it in tune and then changed fingerings to another note without changing my embochure. I watched the tuner and kept track of the new reading, which I recorded.
I tried a Muncy synthetic barrel with my Mitchell-Lurie M3 and with a Vandoren M30 -13 (with an 88 beak). I also ran the test using the stock Buffet barrel with the M30.
Bob Phillips
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-03-18 16:03
I guess my country is an odd animal. From what I've been told orchestras play 442 but almost all pianos (at my university at least) are tuned to 440!
Tnclarinetist, I play an Eaton mouthpiece, but I also play with an Eaton clarinet. The mouthpiece is sharper than any other I've played. With other mouthpieces it is hard not to play flat, if at all possible.
The Eaton mouthpieces are VERY expensive compared with almost any other mouthpiece, so take that into consideration. If I was you I would not buy one before trying it carefully with a tuner because of the high price. I have to say it the best sounding mouthpiece I've played, and articulation is the easiest too.
A very successful classical clarinet soloist plays a Buffet R13 clarinet and Eaton mouthpiece with very good results, so it can definitely work with a Buffet. I am not sure, but I think the mouthpiece she uses now with the Buffet R13 is the same mouthpiece that she used with the Eaton clarinet she used to play.
Hope this helps.
Post Edited (2006-03-18 16:51)
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Author: Avie
Date: 2006-03-18 16:14
You may want to experiment with other MP's and differant barrel lengths to attempt to stabilize the pitch but intonation problems may lie in the clarinet upper and lower joints. Although it would more common in an older model than a newer RC Prestige.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-03-18 18:28
Try pulling the middle joint. That flattens only the long fingerings.
Not all mouthpieces work as intended for all players, so try other things. 5RV has been around for ever, if you want the nearest thing Vandoren does to a 'reference' mouthpiece - but it still might not work for you.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2006-03-18 19:13
Read the whole post:
"the middle b up to e is sharper than natural"
A shorter barrel will not fix all of the instruments problems and will make this range worse.
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Author: tnclarinetist
Date: 2006-03-18 21:31
clarnibass- True, and she's one of my favorites. Perhaps if the Easton is as sharp as you say (and the fact that every other mouthpiece is flat on your clarinet) maybe that kind is the right kind for me. It sounds like my issue; it's nearly impossible to avoid playing flat on the mouthpieces I've tried. If this is the case then is an Eaton mouthpiece set around A=442?
I played a Vandoren M30 and got the same results as my RH. I also have tried pulling from the middle but the somewhat balanced intonation I got became even worse/ more uneven for the other notes.
NG
Post Edited (2006-03-18 21:34)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2006-03-20 06:10
I have a Peter Eaton mouthpiece and find that it plays a bit FLATTER than the Vandoren mouthpieces that I play. So I don't believe that you can say that all Peter Eaton mouthpieces are sharp. Check out what Peter says about mouthpiece pitch on his website.
tnclarinetist: mouthpieces can change the pitch of a clarinet in much the same way that a barrel does- this is they affect the short notes more than the long notes. As the short notes on your instrument are flat, it sounds like the barrel is too long for the instrument. A shorter barrel may get the instrument to play better in tune WITH ITSELF. But the overall pitch may then be too high. You can't do much about that I don't think.
Hiroshi: The Berlin Philharmonic now play at A=443. This is not "Very,very,higher than 442"!
Post Edited (2006-03-20 06:10)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-03-20 06:23
Liquorice, was your comment "so I don't believe that you can say that all Peter Eaton mouthpieces are sharp" directed at me?
I only said that the Eaton mouthpiece I have is sharper, and never said all Eaton mouthpieces play sharper. If that was implied from what I said then I hope it is clearer now.
Oh and actually, the Eaton mouthpiece I have is not mentioned on Eaton's website. A quote from Eaton's website: "Peter Eaton clarinet mouthpieces are offered with a choice of two tone chamber types marked A and AX, offering different tonal characteristics."
Strange - my mouthpiece is type V. Don't know why it is not mentioned on the website.
Post Edited (2006-03-20 06:39)
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Author: tnclarinetist
Date: 2006-03-20 16:04
They might be different, but the tendencies might be the same if the setups are alike.
Liquorice, do you play on a RC Prestige or Eaton Clarinet? If not, than the tendencies will be different. Notice how clarnibass and I have the same tendencies. And yes a barrel can change the intonation to a point, but I recently ordered backun and fobes barrels and they still had the same tendencies, they just made it worse than my original size.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2006-03-20 18:58
Yes, I have both a Peter Eaton and an RC Prestige clarinet. My RC doesn't have any of the tendencies that yours has. Come to think of it, I've never played on an RC that has.
clarnibass, I wasn't directly addressing you. I just found that this entire post was giving the impression that Eaton mouthpieces play sharp, and that has been opposite to my experience. They fine mouthpieces, and I think it would be a shame if people didn't try them because "they're sharp"! If you look on Peter Eaton's website under the "Mouthpieces", see what he writes at the bottom about pitch.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-03-22 04:33
Yes Liquorice, I actually quoted that paragraph from Eaton's website a few days ago on a post here (forgot which one).
Tnclarinetist, if I was you I would contact Peter Eaton and ask him about his mouthpiece and how they tune, although, as he explains, the player determines a lot of the pitch of a clarinet/mouthpiece.
By the way, reading your original post again - a sharper mouthpiece will probably make the long clarion notes (B, C Db, etc) also sharper. But maybe not, a mouthpiece can do some unpredictable things so you really have to try it.
Good luck.
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Author: MD1032
Date: 2006-03-23 23:25
Mouthpieces do indeed affect tuning a lot. Going from B45 to my Bay H2, I only have to pull out about a mm now whereas I was pulling out nearly to the cork at times with the B45. Same thing with my friend and his 5RV, although he has not tried a Bay with his clarinet. But the Bay made things a lot flatter.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2006-11-02 14:01
I play at 442HZ here in Iceland and I have to use with my Bay H2 a 650 mm barrel when I play on the H1 model I only have to use 660 mm barrel. I think it's because of the deep chamber in the H2 model but I am not sure since now I use Grabner AW-Personal which is his deepest chamber of any of his mouthpieces and I have to use 660mm barrel and even have to pull it out maybe 1-2 mm.
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Author: KellyA
Date: 2006-11-02 16:47
Is there any way for you to compare your clarinet with other RC's? I know they are not as common as other models, but it would give you a better clue if it was the clarinet itself. Then you could play the same mouthpiece on a few of them with a tuner and see what happens. That's where I would start.
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2006-11-02 17:17
I agree with all the advice about mouthpieces and tunnig.
I would say that having some undercutting done in the upper joint to bring up the d,f,e/ a,b,c is not really a big deal. Both of my R13's had this problem. I took them to Rick Sayer in Chicago and he worked on a couple of tone holes. The problem is now fixed to a much more comfortable range. It took about an hour and he only charged me 35 bucks to do it. Thats cheaper than a new mouthpiece and now the instruments are very easy to deal with. A good tech will go slow and be careful to take small amounts at a time.
Post Edited (2006-11-03 16:56)
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-11-03 12:57
To tnclarinetist
Best idea is to contact mouth piece/barrel maker and work with him.
Greg Smith or Walter Grabner will be good choice.
Reboring seems to me very dangerous thing to do.
How do you know where to shave?Every bore( i.e.,reamer) is different.
Unless you have the exact same reamer which was used on your specific
instruments,it'll be disaster.
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2006-11-03 16:55
Koo,
when addressing intonation problems on a clarinet. You do not take wood from the bore but rather do some very slight undercutting on specific tone holes. Sometimes the undercutting on some holes is not done perfectly at the factory and so a little extra work in the same manner that is done at the factory is required. Most techs do it with a very small file at the mouthpiece side of the tone hole. Have a look at the Clark Fobes article which explains the process very well:
http://www.clarkwfobes.com/Tuning%20article/Tuning%20the%20Clarinet%20for%20PS.htm
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