 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dewey
Date: 2006-03-02 01:02
First off, i'm glad I found this board, you guys will be seeing a lot of me and i'll be asking a lot of questions!
A student of mine has a newly developed crack in her clarinet. Will this joint need to be replaced or can it be repaired?
[ Post retitled for clarity - GBK ]
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Author: pewd
Date: 2006-03-02 01:52
depends on the crack, where its located, and how extensive it is.
take it to a good tech for an opinion.
most can be repaired.
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Author: Dewey
Date: 2006-03-02 01:55
It's not very severe but I am worried that the weather change may make it worse.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2006-03-02 01:59
When I had a small crack, my repairer told me to play it some more while I was in the workshop to get the instrument warm and to open the crack up as much as possible. No point filling a crack that's just going to get wider.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-03-02 06:26
If the crack terminates at a tonehole, it won't spread any further so it's not a problem, and can be repaired without the need for a new joint - so long as the crack hasn't gone through to the bore (but that too isn't completely disastrous - my old Selmer CT cracked through to the bore, but I repaired it and it never opened up since - and that was back in 1988).
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-03-02 11:55
Dewey....if you are going to be a "regular" and asking a lot of questions you should consider putting your email addrs. in your profile....because sometimes questions require complicated replies too long to post....again and again. So....is the horn plastic or wood.?...for example.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-03-02 12:05
Cracks do not necessarily terminate when they reach a tone hole.
I encountered a top clarinet from a top manufacturer, with a narrow crack that went past 2 or 3 tone holes, in the throat area where there is insufficient room to safely insert stabilising pins.
Because the crack was relatively shallow, any pins inserted elsewhere would probably have been deeper than the crack, and would therefore have done little stabilisation.
This was a crack that opened and closed quite readily.
When the crack opened across a tone hole, the air leaked.
I decided I could not guarantee the reliability of any filling job, and I am rather sceptical about the ability of glue to actually bond well to a oiled timber surface to hold the sides of a crack stable. I also felt that any such work may void a manufacturer warranty. So the instrument was sent back to manufacturer.
manufacturer repaired it immaculately, but a few months of subsequent playing demonstrated that the 'repair' was cosmetic only, and the same crack opened.
Therefore, I consider that if a crack appears across tone holes in this area of a supposedly high quality clarinet, then the joint should be replaced, or money refunded. That would seem to be the legal obligation under consumer rights law in my country.
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Author: wwinds
Date: 2006-03-02 13:39
I have repaired many cracks in clarinets and oboes. I install pins about every 1/2 inch along the crack to stabilize the crack so it does not spead any further. Then I fill the crack and the entry holes for the pins to give the instrument a nice appearance. I have not had any complaints about the crack opening again.
How long can a crack be and still be repaired? I recently repaired a crack in an oboe upper joint that ran almost the entire lenght of the upper joint. It took 11 pins to stabilize it.
Repairing brass and woodwind instruments
www.whisperingwindsrepair.netfirms.com
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-03-02 13:43
How are those pins applied? I read a lot about pinning and the like but haven't seen this operation in real life yet.
--
Ben
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-03-02 14:07
The pins used are threaded rod -- a tunnel (at an angle) is drilled just slightly smaller than the pin diameter and the pin (section of threaded rod) is screwed in; then it's cut and filed flush. In conjunction with the proper adhesive nearly any crack can be permanently and reliably repaired thusly.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-03-02 14:09
My oboe teacher's Marigaux split from top to bottom (just below the level of the trill beam) when she was still living in Minnesota, missing all the toneholes on the top joint - fortunately most toneholes are inline, only the trills and 3rd 8ve toneholes are offset but they were out of danger. It looks as if it's been caught up in machine gun fire with all the filled holes.
I use 2mm threaded steel pins to pin the crack, each pin going in at opposing angles like this \ / \ at regular intervals along the crack, and drilling the 1.6mm hole into the body for the pins - but not emerging on the opposite side of the crack so there's only one hole to fill with each pin - if the drill dos go through and out the other side the wood can splinter, and all those extra filled holes don't look too good.
Stranger than fiction this, I've just had a call to repair a cracked R13 top joint for someone living in Japan, it cracked while here in the UK and it also needs the trill toneholes bushed as well as the crack has run through both of them (I'll bush them in ebonite, though I do like using PVC bushes as they cut nice and cleanly when recutting the new bedplace - ebonite can be a bit grainy depending on how hot it gets when cutting).
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Author: corks&pads
Date: 2006-03-02 14:38
Great responses!
The bit that I'll add is that you need to consider the overall value of the instrument when deciding not only how to repair it, but whether it's worth being repaired. If it's a resin intro-level student model, I'd be inclined to have a tech glue it as a temporary fix, keeping in mind that it's going to need to be replaced sooner or later. That's not necessarily a bad thing, since the owner will eventually want to upgrade.
If it's a better instrument (I'd arbitrarily say the equivalent of a Buffet E11, or better), and the crack isn't disastrous, having it pinned is probably a reasonable thing to do. Keep in mind that there are cracks, and there are CRACKS. While I'm relatively new to clarinet repair, I'm not new to woods. A split into the bore that opens a side of a tone hole is fairly major. I agree with one posting about cracks going into holes ... the hole can act as a stress reliever and often prevents further spread (a common practice in aircraft aluminum repair is to "stop drill" a round hole at the end of a crack before beefing the area up with a reinforcement plate). On the other hand, if that crack is widening as the instrument is played, pretty substantial repairs are in order.
Emerging cracks (not going through to the bore) can be stabilized with threaded pins, as Dave S. points out. In some other wood applications, such cracks are often considered "checking, " and aren't necessarily a big deal, but in a wooden clarinet I'd pin them to hold them at bay, and probably do a cosmetic fill of the fissure.
The one comment that I find puzzling is the tech who wanted a crack opened as wide as possible to fill it. I have a different opinion. Spreading a crack wider and filling it keeps constant circumferencial (sp?) stress on the joint. I'd want to have it as close to closed as possible, pinning the wood to hold it in that position. Once that was done, and depending on the nature of the crack, I *might* try to slightly widen the surface area along the crack by removing a bit of wood. That's so I could add a filler that would give some additional support, but which would be mainly cosmetic.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2006-03-02 14:40
For me, it would also be an issue of the intrinsic value of the clarinet. I would not, for instance, choose to pin a Selmer Signet that had seen better days and wasn't far from needing a repad/overhaul. If it were a newer model that could be repaired/replaced/refunded under warranty, I would carefully consider those options. If it were one of the best clarinets I'd ever played, I'd probably lean toward pinning even if it devalued the clarinet in the marketplace.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-03-02 14:47
I've never flush banded a crack, nor would I ever be inclined to - I don't know how many old Selmers I've seen on eBay for sale, only to see they've been flush banded on closer inspection - and the flush bands go right across the top joint logo. I know that aspect can't be helped when repairing with flush bands, but it looks bloody ugly.
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Author: corks&pads
Date: 2006-03-02 16:21
From the standpoint of a long-lasting repair, though, the relatively new approach of flush banding with carbon fiber in resin seems to be an excellent way to go. As for looks, Dave S. mentioned filing off repair pins flush with the wood, but they can also be counter-sunk just enough to allow the end of the pin to be covered. The folks who do that well produce a repair that most people would never detect.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-03-02 16:43
On the pins themselves, I measure the depth of the hole with a needle spring and put a file cut in the pin at this point, once the pin is screwed in as far as the file cut I snap it off, leaving the snapped end below the surface.
Then I mill out a hollow (between 4 or 5mm dia to a depth of 1-2mm) into the body where the pins went in, taking the ends of the pins down a bit as well and filling it flush with the body with wood dust and thin superglue, then filing the excess down, papering it all smooth and polishing it to finish so the repair is pretty much hidden - only under strong light can the fillings be seen.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-03-03 11:09
Right, now I've got a challenge on my hands - I've just had this cracked R13 delivered to me to repair, but the crack has completely closed up and I can't for the life of me see where it was!
Without knowing where or how far the crack runs down the top joint I can't really do anything until it opens up again - so I'll just have to sit and wait for that to happen - but I suppose the best thing to do is when it does open, mark it with a pencil and then let it close up again by putting it in a sealed bag with a damp cloth, then pin it once it's closed.
I can bush the trill toneholes later on, but apart from the usual chips in these toneholes that are normal on most clarinets, they're almost perfect.
I was told the crack was pretty wide - not anymore!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-03-03 12:05
Chris I've had a lot of cracks because the crazy weather we have here and you really have to play the clarinet for the crack to open.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-03-03 12:27
I can't play this clarinet now as all the top joint keys are off, as well as the speaker bush and trill guide.
But I put a damp rag in the bore to let it open up again, then I'll mark the crack before letting it close up so I can see where I'm to pin it.
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Author: corks&pads
Date: 2006-03-03 16:19
You could also blow warm (not hot) air through it with a hair dryer. I'm surprised, though, that you can't spot the crack with a good magnifying glass and a strong light shone upon the wood at an angle. Sometimes you don't see the crack itself, at first, but just notice that the grain doesn't look quite right along one line.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-03-03 17:28
The grain is a bit wavy towards the top tenon just above the top trill tonehole, so I reckon the crack follows a wavy line.
But still the crack hasn't made itself shown at all, even under strong light. There's several surface vessels that look like they could be cracks but these aren't in the place where the crack is reported to be. Plus the fact it has the wire brush finish to the wood that Buffet seem to like using rather than a completely smooth polished finish, which would make any crack more obvious as the surface finish would be broken following the line of the crack.
So what I've done now is plugged up all the toneholes and the top end of the bore, turned the joint upside down and filled it with warm water - if that won't make it open up, then I don't know what will! Let's hope it doesn't work TOO well!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-03-03 21:43
Chris,
the simplest procedure to find a crack in a material is - short of using a pregnancy ultrasonic thingy - put some [bore] oil onto the surface where you suspect the crack. Within minutes the oil over the crack will be "sucked in" while the surrounding area is still oily. Capillar attraction at work...
(This works equally well with "hairline cracks" in metal or plastic - every material that is less porous than a crack therein)
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-03-04 07:02
I've got the elusive crack to make itself shown by cooling the top joint in the freezer and filling the bore with hot water - a bit drastic but it worked, and now I've marked where the crack runs so I can pin it in the right places once it all closes up again.
As the whole joint warmed up to the same temperature the crack soon disappeared again.
Just as well I took the trill guide off as the crack runs underneath it.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-03-05 00:42
I have never had a problem exposing an elusive crack, simply by leaving a wet "pad saver" inside, for perhaps 24 hours. Don't be too impatient!
Any fast methods, IMHO, would run significant risk of introducing NEW cracks!
I would not use the bore oil method mentioned, because I would prefer to have the timber as oil-free as possible when applying a filler/adhesive.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-03-05 07:26
Fortunately I can get away without having to use any filler as the crack has closed up tight again.
I know I've been impatient, but with this job I haven't been given the amount of time I'd like to let things run their natural course, but now I have marked the exact line the crack has run I can make progress - the clarinet is being shipped to Japan on Tuesday (the same day I'm fitting the tonehole bushings and putting it back tgether) - I only had it delivered on Friday morning just gone.
Now the joint has been 'resting' after it's ordeal for over 24 hours I can go ahead with the pinning tomorrow afternoon to give it more time to 'rest' - it'll need 5 pins - the crack runs it's wavy course down and at the edges of the toneholes following the grain and terminates at the trill guide hole which is pretty deep, so it shouldn't spread further. It hasn't opened at the upper tenon end at all.
I don't like to have to rush a job as much as anyone else does, but I'm saving someone else's skin by doing this. Not for the first time either - they owe me more favours now than I can remember.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-03-05 13:37
A pin stabilises a crack at a depth of several mm below the surface. It surely then has limited effect in stabilising the stresses in the SURFACE of the timber. Therefore I have reservations about expecting pins, on their own, to hold a closed crack, stably closed across tone holes.
I prefer to open the crack a bit and use glue/filler. Then the surface is more likely to be either stress-relieved or under compression during future use of the instrument, rather than under tension. As soon as the area is again under tension at the surface, an unglued/unfilled crack will surely again open across a tone hole, causing an intermittent leak, especially when the instrument is practised a lot prior to a concert. (It is at these times that the moisture gradient through the timber wall is increased.)
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Author: Dewey
Date: 2006-03-06 22:22
O.k. actually there are two cracks in the barrell and one in the upper joint. Would anybody have a rough estimate of what kind of price to expect to repair these?
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Author: Michelle
Date: 2006-03-07 16:41
Since there are so many unknown variables and so many techs available, best bet is to contact a few offline with exact specifics on your clarinet cracks and get their current price quote.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-03-07 21:08
The annoying thing with this Buffet was getting the finish right after filling the holes where the pins went in - Buffet don't have a shiny polished finish, they have a scratchy finish, so after polishing where I'd papered up the body I used the edge of a piece of 500 grit and ran this up the joint to get the same scratchy effect, then hand ragging smoothed it out so it blended with the original finish. The trill toneholes were bushed with ebonite bushes to the same diameter as the bed places (11mm).
Has to be said I showed my colleagues the finished job and they couldn't detect where I'd pinned it.
I wanted to have an X-ray image of the joint after pinning to see how it all looks.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-03-08 08:13
I went to the local hospital's A&E department yesterday morning but they were closed(!), but a colleague mentioned he wanted some X-ray photographs of bassoon joints and a specialist at the hospital mentioned a donation to the NHS was required - a minimum donation of £200! And that's the cost of the repair before slapping on VAT.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-03-08 15:56
And having just repaired one cracked R13, along comes another one!
What are the chances of that happening? At least I'll have more time to find out about X-raying between now and the time it's finished.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-03-08 17:14
The pain and suffering that cracks incurred upon us is the price we paid for that elusive “wooden” sound.
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