 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Greek Style
Date: 2006-03-08 11:29
Are B- natural clarinet in the same pitch as an Bb High Pitch clarinet. i read about an old albert clarinet on the internet and the length of it was 58cm without the mouthpiece. "it was in german so i couldn't understand everything" but i understood that it said that it was an B(H) clarinet, 440 Hz. anyway Is a B-natural And Bb High pitch the same thing? (i now that H is B-natural and B- is Bb in german)
Post Edited (2006-03-08 13:51)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-03-08 12:41
In German the -is suffix means "sharp", ie #, so "Fis" is "F#", Gis is G# etc.
-[e]s means "flat", ie b, so "As" is Ab, "Es" is Eb, "Des" is "Db"
The ad says the open G sounds like an F#, so the pitch is indeed Bnat or Cb or Bb# or whatever.
--
Ben
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-03-08 14:22
There's a "H" designation in there somewhere as well, if I recall correctly. Doesn't it refer to the Bb horn?
Jerry Pierce had an encounter with what he (and others who should know) was a B natural clarinet some ten or so years back. He wrote a whole page column in The Clarinet on the topic before he died, and it was the consensus opinion that one may have finally been encountered.
However, in all of the other instances that were listed, the opinion was that there was a mis-identification rather than a discovery of a clarinet in B.
The logic went something like this:
The clarinet in B natural would have been a creation of the very early days of clarinet making, back when the lack of the eight keys of the early "mature" clarinet was a real problem. Before the advent of the "clarinet omintonique", capable of playing in most keys without horrid half-holing and "wolf note" cross-fingerings, there was a pressing need to switch from A to Bb to C to D and others. After the basic keywork of the "simple clarinet" was finally completed, the need became less compelling and gradually the vogue became A and Bb and (for the Russians and the Italians) C.
The parts continued on, however. I don't recall which one of the people from the Classical Period wrote for the B natural horn, but there weren't more than two or three parts in the literature at the time that Pierce did his study. The presence of those parts is the evidence that such an animal once existed.
But, any horn made after axles and rods replaced the clapper keys of the early days is probably a misidentified high pitch rather than the gen-u-ine B natural article. And, as there are very few horns still drifting about (outside of collections and museums) from the Muller era, it's increasingly unlikely that any of us will encounter one at this remove.
And, none of this is to say that such a beast could not be built. The hole spacing would be a bit tighter than the Bb, and getting a maker to go to the trouble would be difficult. But, it could be done. Take your ten grand to Rossi or another maker, tell them to go to, and let us know how the final result comes out.
I'd be willing to be that most who play such an animal would call it "shrill", in much the same way that the C is "shrill" and the A is "mellow".
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-03-08 16:08
We have talked about this many times, I have a friend with one [he thinks] and I may have a ?Bb HP? which may be "confusable" with B Nat. Seeing the above ref's. to Brymer and Pierce [he has many early ICA "potapourri" {sp?}], so looked up Brymer's article, "The Strange History of the B Natural Clarinet", its in the ICA Journal, Vol XXII/2, pg 32-3. I will find/read, and suggest others do also and search further. "Nuff for now, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-03-08 16:44
I suspect it's a sharp-pitch Bb, and hence only approximately a modern-pitch B natural.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-03-08 19:54
Mozart used B-natural clarinets (In German: H-clarinet) in "Cosi fan tutte". I used one in a period instrument recording of this piece back in 1985. Which number in the opera it is escapes my memory now, but the piece is in E major, F major for the B-cl. In modern editions this number is for A-cl in G major. Mozart never used #-key signatures for clarinet originally so it must have been natural for him to use one since they obviously were around. I’m quite sure that the Albert clarinet you refer to is a HP B-flat. I’ve never heard of them being used in the 19th century and onwards.
My limited experience with HP clarinets restricts me to an attempt to use a HP Albert Eb-clarinet in a concert with music written by the Strauss family. Some nephew or uncle of Johann Strauss j:r wrote a piece for E clarinet. The HP Eb was too flat however to be used as an E clarinet and I think it goes for most HP clarinets.
Alphie
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-03-08 21:00
I have a high pitch Bb clarinet that has A=457ish. This will put its Bb very close to B natural.
J B
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-03-08 21:29
J B Lansing, close enough for you to use it in concert?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-03-08 22:24
I just knew we were going to have to look up the pitch # [cps=Hertz] of B Nat. Based on A at 440 [ASP, Chrom.] B is barely below 494, so as Alphie said, you would be somewhat FLAT. At A=435, your 457 would be flat to A# which is 460, let alone B Nat.. I believe you can use the 12th root of 2 for calculations if you wish. Lots of tuning problems !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-03-09 01:08
Oh no! It is probably ten cents off at the mid Bb and varies more in either direction. It just shows up on a meter as an out of tune B natural. Also I am not sure all High Pitch is created equal. (also, what Don said).
J B
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2006-03-13 21:48
B-natural Buffet; In Los Angeles I was shown a Boehm system Buffet with a one piece body and wrap around register key with the insignia rotated 45 degrees. It did not have the original barrel but it was truly in the key of B with fine intonation. I was told that it was a model made for the Middle East. Ask Buffet about this with this geographical feature. Yes, Greek Style, I will take it and the G clarinet with a Boehm system if I could because they both have good clarion registers as I learned from the German system G that I played at an exhibit. Beautiful Things that Mozart Wanted in Different Sizes, Ken
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-12-10 14:30
The clarinet you are referring to may have been offered on the great auction site recently. I don't remember who was selling it, but it sounded like somebody reputable with a return policy was representing one truly as a B natural instrument (Antique Buffet, marked with a faint "H", non-original barrel). Also, a likely identical one came up on the auction site within the last year- vague listing by clueless seller- but also was marked "H" and around 25" long IIRC (I should have bid on that one). This leads me to believe maybe they are more common than thought to be?
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Author: William
Date: 2008-12-10 17:01
Three years ago, a friend of mine gave me an old Albert system Pedler clarinet in a double case which my favorite repairperson, Mary Jones, restored to playing condition (for $125). Interestingly, when I played C5, a perfect B4 sounded on my tuning meter (A=440). I later came across some old advertisments that offered sets of B & Bb clarinets for the clarinetist playing in colder conditions--ex, ice show without a heated pit--who found it impossible to play up to pitch with the Bb clarinet. I then discovered that my Bb clarinet fit perfectly in the double case along with the Pedler it came with. So I think I have an "improved" Albert system Pedler clarinet in B and not a "sharp" HP Bb clarinet. In any case, I have an amazing almost mint condition anteque double clarinet casen that I find most interesting. Looks and opens like a Wiseman but is square rather than round. But, I guess that is "off thread"--sorry..................
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-12-10 18:33
I have heard of that explanation of clarinets that played in B natural or close under normal conditions. I'd love to see such printed confirmation. Hey, I just had a thought- my music theory knowledge is terrible, but what if a C clarinet was pitched in A=415, say for playing baroque music or somesuch, what would we perceive this clarinet as sounding like in an A=440 world? Would it be very close to sounding as a B natural clarinet? Just some uninformed conjecture.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-12-10 20:09
Modernicus wrote:
"what if a C clarinet was pitched in A=415, say for playing baroque music or somesuch, what would we perceive this clarinet as sounding like in an A=440 world? Would it be very close to sounding as a B natural clarinet?"
No it would still be a C clt but very flat but not quite a semitone flat.
There is a reference to the B clt in 'Diapason general de tous les instruments a vent' by Francoeur le Neveu (Louis-Joseph), Paris 1772. By 1780 and beyond there is no mention of such an instrument in any of the French clarinet tutors. The tutor of Van der Hagen (Amand), Paris 1785 mentions clarinets pitched in C, D, Eb(?), Bb and A. I questioned marked the Eb because the transposition chart shows E major scale with the transposing clarinet playing in F major. I doubt that it is a clarinet in E as the resulting transposition would be C major for the clarinet. Perhaps it's a copyist mistake? One to peruse over I think.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-10 20:33
cigleris - would you like to justify that statement?
An equal-tempered semitone is a frequency ratio of the twelfth root of 2, which is 1.0594630943592952645618252949463 according to the WinXP calculator. If you divide 440 by that number you get 415.30469757994513852244178893372.
We can forget the decimal places, of course. A clarinet pitched at A=415 is very very slightly MORE than a semitone flatter than one pitched at A=440.
Therefore a C clarinet pitched at A=415 would be (almost) exactly the same thing as a Bnatural clarinet pitched at A=440. No????
A=415 has been chosen for modern performances at baroque pitch fro precisely the reason that it is almost exactly a semitone below A=440. This makes it possible to build dual-pitch harpsichords with sliding keyboards, which can be used at either A=440 or A=415 without retuning. (Assuming equal temperament, that is.) A few harpsichord builders have gone even further and built triple-pitch instruments. These can be tuned either at 392/415/440, or at 415/440/466. Which is why, of course, 392 and 466 are chosen when an especially low or especially high pitch is desired.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-12-10 20:44
Well, that is similar to how I arrived at my conjecture- I multiplied the twelfth root of 2 X 415 and arrived at something between 439 and 440, which would be more than close enough. Then I looked at a chart of the frequencies of musical notes and saw that G#/Ab when A=440 is 415.30Hz
Post Edited (2008-12-10 20:48)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-12-10 20:52
Update.
Was looking through some more of my facsimiles of French clarinet tutors and I found another Van der Hagen (the same person as in my previous post) released another tutor in 1796 and was again printed in Paris.
Here again he lists transpositions for the different clarinets and here he has clarinets in C, Bb and A. He then lists "Clarinette en mi majeur, Sol, en mi (Eb) Fa en Re"
What is interesting about this is that the transposition printed for the 'Clarinette en mi majeur' is as follows:
Violin plays E major scale, clarinet plays F major
Vln plays B major scale, clt plays C major
Vln plays G# minor scale (melodic), clt plays A minor (melodic)
Vln plays C# minor scale (melodic), clt plays D minor (melodic)
Clarinet in E or B? My French is no where near good enough to be able to read and translate the text that accompanies this.
Food for thought.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-12-10 21:05
Norbet,
I can't justify it as i'm no good with complicated maths like that. All I know is a C clarinet (or any clarinet for that matter) is still a C clarinet whether it be a 440, 430 or 415. Just because it may sound a semitone flat doesn't automatically make it and different clarinet at a different pitch, or does it?
Peter Cigleris
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-12-10 21:13
It's all relative, I suppose. Which is why it is confusing. Say we tuned to A=466, wouldn't your run-of-the-mill modern Bb clarinet be very close to being an A clarinet in this pitch standard?
Post Edited (2008-12-10 21:19)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-12-11 15:16
“Just because it may sound a semitone flat doesn't automatically make it and different clarinet at a different pitch, or does it?”
In a philosophical sense it does, but a pragmatic way of looking at it would be that you first decide what pitch you want to make your instrument in and then call it what you want it to be: an A, Bb or C, or H for that matter.
I don’t think this kind of confusion will ever occur with instruments manufactured seriously for the market. All instruments have been made for one purpose and to be used as such in whatever pitch they may have. The clarinet has never been made in such a low pitch that a 440 b-flat can be confused being a B-natural and never high enough to be confused being a HP A-clarinet.
Alphie
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2008-12-11 16:00
"By 1850, chaos reigned, with major European theatres at pitches varying from A=420 to A=460, and even higher at Venice." (from http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/rev_tuning_hist.html ). With A at 440, B flat is at 466, within a few cents of what would have been called A at Venice; I don't know what the Venetian clarinetists were playing, but if they had "B flat" clarinets that played in tune at Venetian pitch, they'd be nearly indistinguishable from B natural clarinets tuned at A440.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-12-11 19:12
rsholmes, if you ever come across a Venetian clarinet from 1850, CALL ME!! ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2008-12-11 19:28
I probably couldn't afford it. The call to Sweden, I mean -- definitely not the clarinet...
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Author: ac27182
Date: 2011-02-26 05:57
I have a american pedler co. clarinet
It says on the body A2467
at first I thought nothing of this, and then I realized that the clarinet was perfectly tuned to B natural.
thusly I assume the label on the body mean A to 467
approximate value?/what the hell should I do with this thing
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-02-26 06:37
Play it outdoors in winter as it'll be flat enough to be in tune!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-02-26 14:55
>>what the hell should I do with this thing
>>
There is a small market for high-pitch clarinets, and not just among people who collect antiques in order to sit and look at them. High-pitch clarinets are useful with original instrument ensembles. For instance, in a wind quintet, the oboist playing an antique can't do much about the original pitch of that instrument and it's up to everybody else to tune to the oboe. Some clarinet players may be able to get good results with a short barrel or even "lipping up" on a modern clarinet, but an old high-pitch clarinet gives better results with a lot less trouble.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-02-26 15:41
A low pitch B natural clarinet built to 440Hz will be sharper in pitch than a high pitch Bb clarinet built to 452Hz.
Same way a low pitch Bb clarinet will be sharper than a high pitch A clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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