 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-03-07 15:53
I've noticed several mentions recently on "taking more mouthpiece". Ken Shaw recently included that in his advice on making fuller sounds.
I've personally been running in to some of the challenges of getting the "right" amount of mouthpiece into my mouth while playing.
My experience centers around my attempt to master the use of a Vandoren M30 (like my super-sounding teacher uses). It has a very long lay and sounds better with a lot of reed flapping inside my mouth. As the mouthpiece is withdrawn, the sound gets weak.
Contrast the M30 with some with "normal" length lays. When these shorter mouthpieces are pushed too far into my mouth, they will "chirp" when tongued. My teacher says that that is a sign that too much mouthpiece is taken.
With the M30, its difficult to take enough mouthpiece to get a chirp.
Turns out that I've gotten lazy about taking enough mouthpiece. I discovered this when playing some of the Kroepsch and Baermann exercise that cross into the altissimo. If I don't have enough mouthpiece crossing the altissimo break, the sound up there will be thin, or the notes won't even form (BLUSH).
On the other hand, it is more work to use all that mouthpiece, and my embochure tires quickly.
SO: THE QUESTIONS: Do you folks play with the mouthpiece near chirp position? Did you have to re-develop your embochure to do so? What happens when you cheat and let the horn fall out of your mouth?
THANKS
Bob Phillips
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-03-07 17:50
I could use some advice on this also. My M30, series 13, 88 mouthpiece sound very good if I take alot in, but after a day or so I develop an irritation on my inner, lower lip (my teeth are not quite even). So end up reluctantly puting the M30 up and going back to my old mouth piece.
J B
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Author: redwine
Date: 2006-03-07 20:40
Hello,
I always say "put too much mouthpiece in your mouth so that you squeak on an open g. Hold that tone as you pull the mouthpiece out of your mouth slowly. While continuing to blow, when the open g sounds, then you are about in the right position." Slight adjustment after that may be necessary to achieve optimum efficiency.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-03-07 20:49
Also try this:
But your reed/lig combo on your mp. Now, put a piece of paper in between the reed and mp and see how far it goes in before stopping. Where it stops is where your bottom lip should be. A college professor taught me that last year and it helped projection/tone quality for the better. Hope that helped!
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-03-08 07:23
Several posts on this site have suggested that there are short-lay and long-lay players, and never the twain shall meet. I know I don't get on with M30. I even went to try the thing again after reading the threads about the amount of mpc in the mouth - no joy. Maybe I'm just a short-lay player - I certainly find 5RV a very dependable standby.
My questions are these, then: is there something wrong with being a short-lay player? Can people change? Is there a transatlatic split in this regard? - the M-series are certainly aimed at the US market, and I found it dashed hard to get hold of one to try here in the UK. Or is it just fashionable to play long-lay?
For a given mouthpiece, I'd agree there is certainly a 'sweet spot' where it plays best. I was taught to err on the side of too little mouthpiece, if I needed to err (any sign of 'honk' is too far - never mind 'chirp'). It seems some posters here have been taught the opposite. Anyone?
The thing with clarinet is that just because your super-sounding teacher uses M30, it doesn't mean M30 will work for you. That's why there's so many mpc manufacturers out there. There will be a route to the voice you want - it's just finding it that's the problem.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-03-08 11:17
I find the best was to determine the "zone" of how much mouthpiece is to play any note in lower register, use too much jaw pressure, if the tone closes off, put more mouthpiece in. I try to find the point where the "embouchure" becomes a non factor. If you are getting "honk" it's because the air pressure is lacking. Getting the embouchure out of the "chain" I feel is the key. I personally find I like long facing mouthpieces in the 38 range, when you get the right reed you get a vibration that feels like it's on both sides of your lower lip and this sounds more way more resonant than not enough reed vibrating area. Tony Pay used the analogy of the lower lip being more like a racing bike tire sorry(tyre) than a mountain bike tire. The idea of keeping the lower lip off the reed and allowing more to vibrate was the key point. Inevitalbly, when someone comes to me and asks me to straighten out their sound, it almost always is because of "end user vibrational inhibition". To hard of a reed, to open of a mouthpiece, too much jaw pressure, in exactly the wrong spot.
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-03-08 13:48
Interesting, Tom. Air pressure, yes. Less jaw pressure, yes. But 'getting the embouchure out of the "chain"'?
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-03-08 20:11
I'll even go this far the only thing you can do with an embouchure is screw up the sound! The only thing that the embouchure "activly" does, is touch the reed. I'm talking lips here, the people I've heard that have large, beautiful vibrant, music making sounds, all get the lips out of the way of the thing that is vibrating, THE REED.
When we see a person play a triangle in the band, does he hold it directly with his had or does he hold a strap that the triangle is suspended by? it's by the strap! we know what if would sound like if he held the triangle with his hand right" DONK! I've heard alot of clarinetists get that same sound on a clarinet. that tight, fuzzy, hooty, non vibrating, constipated sound. Alot of them have embouchures that look like the "textbook" photos I've seen. Quite frankly that doesn't work. I'll tell you the price of the mouthpiece has very little to do with it. When you find the zone where the reed vibrates the most, you can sound great on a Fobes Debut, a really great mouthpiece by the way that I use to demonstrate that a good sound isn't dependant on "custom" built and tweeked canadian stuff I play on most of the time. And this goes twice for saxophone!
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-03-08 20:16
Ben,
Thank you. I tried your open G method, and it seems to settle me right where I SHOULD have the mouthpiece. SIGH, I'll have to train myself to take a bigger bite.
Interestingly, when using your method to set the mouthpiece, I can immediately play everything up to A6.
Great tip.
Bassie,
I think I hate my M30. My teacher has allowed me to dip into his box of "other" mouthpieces, and I found one that seemed to "come alive" for me. Unfortunately, it is not for sale (a Kaspa, I think it was). Meanwhile, my mouth is so open around that honker that I'm slobbering all over my bore.
I'm seriously thinking of having my M30 refaced on the sly. Then I can be politcally accommodating and have a more responsive piece.
Tom,
Your method, like that of clarinetgirl06, seems to establish the point where the reed leaves the mouthpiece table. It correlates with Ben's method.
Thanks, all (so far?)
Bob Phillips
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Author: Bill G
Date: 2006-03-08 22:03
Is there a Vandoren mouthpiece with a sound, feel, and openness of the M30, but a shorter lay? Bill G
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-03-09 07:06
Well, I went and performed the experiment. The best balance for me is definitely a smidgen short of the chirp point. Not much, I'll admit, but significant. If I go closer to the chirp point than this, I hate what it does to my tone. Less mouthpiece, and the sound is strangled (I think we can all agree on that). At my 'sweet spot' I can still clamp the reed shut if I really try - but isn't the point to play with as little 'bite' as possible? I maintain that the gentle touch of the embouchure gives control over the instrument. I find it hard to see how zero interaction of lip with reed can be a good thing.
Tom - do you think your involvement with Klezmer affects your style? I can see how the increasingly strident tone as you approach the chirp point could be desirable.
*
The two Vandorens I get on with are '5RV' and 'B45-dot'. Both shorter-lay than the M30, 5RV much more so. For me, 5RV is sweet as honey; B45-dot is more of a gold-plated bullet. I found M30 more 'covered' than either of these, but equally easy to articulate. (I play classical chamber, wind ensemble and jazz with a bias towards trad.)
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-03-09 11:00
Bassie, now that you have found that sweet spot, find some reeds that play well there,and there will be a very good chance that your spot will be ever farther in your mouth. Here's something I do to get my students used to playing in the "zone". put a mouthpiece patch on you MP. Do what ever proceedure you use to find, the point of maximum reed vibration,and or embouchure interferance. Take a second mouthpiece patch, cut it in half so you have half of mp patch that's alread on the mouthpiece, put this half patch at the point where your teeth are (if you're still a person that insists on the top teeth thing.) Use this as a guide so you can just slide your teeth up till they hit the edge of the second MP patch. There is a tendancy for the clarinet to constantly migrate out of the mouth.
I don't think the klezmer playing really has much to do with amount of mouthpiece I put in my mouth, except that it allows me to control my sound with my air and very little with the embouchue. Becuase all you can do with an embouchure is stop a perfectly good vibrating reed.
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-03-09 11:16
Bill G,
As to the Vandoren compromise question. I have a 5RV Lyre 88 (13 series) that plays wonderfully. Normally I love long lay mouthpieces and this one is more so than the plain 5RV but I believe it to be less than the 30. You'll have to try yourself. Then there is always the possibility that I have an aberrant facing on mine - not for sale!!!!!
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-03-09 13:10
Tom -
My reeds are fine, thank you. And yes, I play double-lip sometimes. I really think we're talking about two schools of playing here.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-03-09 15:20
Who makes "fine" reeds? Yogi bara once was quoted as saying " every thing changes everything" If you change the amount of mouthpiece you're putting in your mouth consistanly, the reeds you use will evolve allowing "longer" vibratations than ones you currently use. That wasn't a "dis" to your reeds.
I use a very close and long facing mouthiece for just about everything I play, recitals, klezmer concerts, and Simcha gigs with my band. I have the great luxury of have all the facings of Backun-moralas mouthpieces here on my desk. moutpieces that range in tip openings 1.15 down to .98. Each one has a differnent style reed that I needed fit to it. Once I have a reed matched to each one, I can start to find the "zone" for each syle. Once I do that they all seem to play, albeit with different air stream energy. I will not use anymore embouchure pressure to make them work. This is where I find alot of clarinetists start doing things that inhibit their sounds.
I have noticed that when most Bb clarinetists pick up an Eb clarinet they are amazed at the response and ease of making a sound. Some of it has to do with bore and such, but I think that most of is the fact that the mouthpiece is smaller and the first time you but it in your mouth most people put much more in, proportionatly than they do on Bb. If they keep playing it for a few weeks they start to play closer to the tip.
Conversly, when Bb players pick up a bass clarinet, they will put the amount of mouthpiece that feels close the same "bite" as the Bb clairnet. This is nowhere near enough. Unless you're using a very short facing bass mouthpiece and even then. It's usually not enough. But after spending time findig the zone on bass, the sound just opens up and gets "brighter and darker" at the same time.
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-03-10 07:54
Tom -
It all goes to show something, I'm just not sure what. Basically I'm very happy with my tone right now, and it comes from somewhere just a shade shorter than the point that seems to work for you. But then, I play shorter lay mouthpieces with middle-of-the-road reeds (Vandoren 3), and maybe that has something to do with it. I'm no stranger to bass (see the nametag? ;-D) and you're right - the sweet-spot is correspondingly further down the mouthpiece. Feels weird if I haven't done it for a while, but soon settles in.
Embouchure pressure to /make the instrument play/ is clearly wrong, as you've said. That's how beginners get that 'strangled chicken' noise (as I like to call it) that we're all so fond of ;-D. But I maintain that keeping the embouchure in the loop, if only at the periphery, is a valid technique.
- I think what I'm saying then is that everyone has to experiment with taking different quantities of mouthpiece, and to *LISTEN* to what it does for them. That's the whole story - change things and listen. Especially listen. Every time I play, I try to listen to myself (very very difficult sometimes) and try to adapt my playing to what's required.
Clearly you're recommending a story of different reeds, different lay, different embouchure style, and I respect that. But my slow changes of technique and equipment over the years have led me to a slightly different place. I'll keep experimenting, but I'm not going to rip up everything at once right now.
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-03-10 20:14
I have been following this tread with a great deal of interest. As I said in the second post above, I have a M30, Series 13, 88 mouthpiece and have been trying to adapt to it. My standard mouthpiece is a Hite Premier. What motivates me is the sound of the M30. Very smooth and even. Now my problem. I am a returning player after 42 years absense I have been playing about 7 months fairly intensely. What I find with the M30 is that I can adapt to taking more mouthoiece in my mouth, but I also seem to take in more of my lower lip over my lower teeth. I can correct this, but find I consistantly revert and it causes a irritation to my lower lip. What I don't understand is why I don't have this problem with the Hite. All I can think is that I am unconcously compensating for some difficulty in articulation or tuning. I realize trying to correct this kind of thing with words is tough, but I was wondering if any one had run across this with students and what was done to correct it.
[Lenny Bruce said, "Doc it hurts when I do this. And the Doc said "Don't do that!""]
J B
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-03-10 22:29
JBL:
Once a week, I sit with my M30 in my face while my teacher beats me. He won't let me play in his presence with my lip rolled under.
Also, I don't play any other mouthpiece. After 5-months, I'm still tempted to pull out the old favorite because of some percieved shortfall with the M30/13. It doesn't work. The old one doesn't play better in the alti, play louder or more in tune. But I don't think it causes me to slobber as much as the M30.
Bob Phillips
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-03-11 14:15
Bob,
I'm with you. I wonder if it is the "profile 88" which I understand to be a flater angle of the back of the beak, somehow causes this tendency. What I need to do, is during a break in band perfomaces, go in the celler away from everybody and play, and play with, the M30. Sigh....
J B
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-03-11 14:42
JB
I don't think that my M30 has the "88" shape. There was no mention of it on the packaging. It seems to have the same sort of beak shape as my other mouthpieces.
Bob Phillips
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-03-11 15:31
The 88s have a BIG "88" on the side of the mouthpiece so we probably have apples and oranges here.
J B
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-03-11 19:23
OK, I just pulled the M30 out of my case, and it does have a big "88" --kinda stylized on the side. It looks like the upper surface is steeper by a little than my Mitchel Lurie mpc.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-03-13 07:50
I think the whole '88' thing is related to this thread. I imagine the 88 would in general help players to take more mouthpiece - it's narrower, and the shallow slope suggests that it's less likely to drift out of the mouth. Personally, I've tried both but I haven't made my mind up.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-03-13 23:18
More on M30.
My teacher had a pile of "normal" M30's (not the -13s, which are tuned to A440 for the Buffet R13) on his desk this afternoon. He's testing mouthpieces looking for a back-up for his regular M30.
Says that these play A442, and through his whole clarinet out of tune.
Back they go for a batch of M30-13s.
Bob Phillips
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