 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Gary
Date: 2000-04-25 20:36
I am a trumpet player and need to use double tonguing to play fast passages. My son's clarinet teacher told him that he does not recommend double tonguing for clarinet players. However for faster passages do most clarinetists single tongue these notes? BTW, my son is a double lipper...could that have any bearing on the recommendation to not double tongue?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-04-25 20:54
Gary wrote:
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I am a trumpet player and need to use double tonguing to play fast passages. My son's clarinet teacher told him that he does not recommend double tonguing for clarinet players. However for faster passages do most clarinetists single tongue these notes?
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many clarinet players don't know how to double tongue, but it's accepted practice among the virtuosos. There are a lot of clarinetists that can single tongue at very high speeds, though.
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BTW, my son is a double lipper...could that have any bearing on the recommendation to not double tongue?
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No, I wouldn't imagine so. The chances are greater that your son's teacher dosn't really know how to double tongue, and doesn't feel it's necessary at your son's level of development.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-04-25 20:55
Sometimes a clarinet player thinks they have a slow tongue when the real problem is that they have not yet fully mastered the synchronization of tongue and fingers. This problem is very common. To the player (and sometimes the teacher) it will often sound like a tonguing problem. This synchronization issue is, I suspect, far less severe on the trumpet or is perhaps even a non-issue.
Also on the clarinet, single tonguing is a fine art. Sometimes lack of speed is indicative of not having yet fully mastered single tonguing. On the clarinet, there are a lot of small errors possible in tonguing technique that can slow a student down.
Until the fine points of single tonguing and synchronization are mastered, it could be unwise to tackle double tonguing.
Many professional and amateur clarinettists play the most demanding pieces of clarinet literature with single tonguing.
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Author: Jake Wallace
Date: 2000-04-25 22:34
This is something that I consider myself somewhat of an expert on (the theory, not the practice. I can't double tongue personally... not well, at least).
Double tonguing is the process of having the tongue impact two different places in the mouth to get two breaks in the sound in one fluid motion. Try saying ta-ta-ta-ta as fast as possible. Then say ta-ka-ta-ka as fast as possible. You'll find the latter to be much quicker. The idea is to have a rocking motion along the tongue where the tip touches the front of the mouth, and is followed by the back of the tongue impacting the top of the mouth. On a brass instrument, this works well, as the sound is created by breaking the air stream going in to the instrument. On a reed instrument, however, the tone is created by impacting the reed primarily. Double tonguing, therefore, is very hard to work in properly so the attacks sound correct, since the second attack in the double tonguing method doesn't come near the reed. With practice, it *can* work, but it is very difficult.
Flutter tonguing is another option, which involves moving the tongue up and down rapidly, eg. saying tuh-tul-uh-tul. In this method, the reed is impacted on every attack, but is difficult to control, especially on rhythms that aren't straight sixteenth (or 32nd, or whatever else) notes. In a piece our band played for contest this year, I tried using this method. At two places in the piece, there are tongued sixteenths in the upper woodwinds and brass going at q=156-168. However, since there was an occasional eighth note mixed in, I would play two sixteenths due to my own lack of control. So I had to bear down and single-tongue it. Another downside is that this method is hell for your reeds if you tongue very hard at all. I snapped the tips off two of my best reeds in one day doing this, which was needless to say, quite annoying.
Realistically, single tonguing is the best, as you get the purest attacks. It's difficult to do, but it provides the best results, and can get quite speedy with practice. I can single tongue effectively at about q=156 (16ths), and my teacher can do upwards of 168+. Very few pieces in a student's repertoire, however, will require tonguing faster than 144.
Jake Wallace
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-04-25 23:10
Jake Wallace wrote:
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Realistically, single tonguing is the best, as you get the purest attacks. It's difficult to do, but it provides the best results, and can get quite speedy with practice.
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Oh, I don't know. I have a really hard time figuring out when Charlie Neidich switches from single to double, and he's clean even at breakneck speeds. Bob Spring isn't quite as clean in the articulation and doesn't have the tone of Charlie "at speed" - but Bob puts on a <b>great</b> show! I've never seen Neidich perform, so I can't compare the showmanship. Believe me, when you're doing the kind of fun stuff that Bob does, showmanship is a must! I keep telling Bob I'm going to nail his feet down to the stage someday - those of you who've seen him perform know exactly what I mean :^)
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-04-26 00:02
Jake Wallace wrote:
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... Double tonguing is the process of having the tongue impact two different places in the mouth to get two breaks in the sound in one fluid motion. Try saying ta-ta-ta-ta as fast as possible. Then say ta-ka-ta-ka as fast as possible. You'll find the latter to be much quicker. The idea is to have a rocking motion along the tongue where the tip touches the front of the mouth, and is followed by the back of the tongue impacting the top of the mouth.
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Well now I know why double tonguing is slower for me than single and will probably always be that way. If I focus on moving *just the tip* of my tongue, I can do the ta-ta-ta faster than the rocking movement required by the ta-ka-ta-ka thing. Even experimenting without the clarinet, I find that for me the double tonguing movement requires more time than single tonguing.
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Author: LJClarinetGuy
Date: 2000-04-26 04:13
I don't know, I know I'm not an expert either at single or double tonguing on clarinet, even if I've been playing for 7 yrs with a pretty good teacher... From what I've read from Dr. Pino's book, the ta-ka-ta-ka technique normally used on brass and flute are harder for the clarinet simply because the mouthpiece is not solely on the outside of the mouth but inside making it harder to get the tongue away from the front fast enough... Well, from what Pino suggests, tuttle-uttle seems to work but you have to think of the tongue moving in an paint brush fashion down onto the reed and then up to the roof of the mouth. Now in this fashion, I believe you actually use the tip of the tongue to do most of the work. Now I don't know how this would affect Dee's attempts, but it may create a different result. I've tried experimenting with the technique in just pronouncing it, and although it seems difficult, with minor practice everyday it can get easier to say, but my trying it is another story since I haven't really mastered single tonguing (i'll always be convinced i'm not doing something right). Now, I wouldn't suggest trying double tonguing unless you really know how to properly single tongue, and never do it in excess everyday. Well, I guess I've put my opinion in, but I felt like sharing at least some of what I've heard about the multiple tonguing technique. Thanks all for putting up with my highly amatuer opinion
-Joey-
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Author: Lelia
Date: 2000-04-26 14:56
Mark Charette wrote:
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Bob Spring isn't quite as clean in the articulation and doesn't have the tone of Charlie "at speed" - but Bob puts on a <b>great</b> show! I've never seen Neidich perform, so I can't compare the showmanship. Believe me, when you're doing the kind of fun stuff that Bob does, showmanship is a must! I keep telling Bob I'm going to nail his feet down to the stage someday - those of you who've seen him perform know exactly what I mean :^)
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Off-topic, but... I nominate Springs's "Dragon's Tongue" and "Tarantelle" CDs as the best cover art on the market, too. Why do so many great clarinet recordings hide under such dull jackets? Instead of going the bargain-basement route of reducing Old Masters (with expired copyrights...) down to itty-bitty CD cover size, where they lose all their detail and look like boring little mud-spots, Springs's CDs use new art designed to look great and draw attention at that size. Springs knows how to pull in an audience, and more power to him.
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Author: Jake Wallace
Date: 2000-04-26 21:13
Mark Charette wrote:
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I keep telling Bob I'm going to nail his feet down to the stage someday - those of you who've seen him perform know exactly what I mean :^)
Heh, I saw a young French clarinet play this fall, named Romain Guyot. He was a fabulous player (played a bunch of sonatas by Brahms, Saint-Saens, etc.), but it seemed more like he was up there because of his dancing abilities. I've never seen someone jump around the stage as much while playing. 
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Author: Lelia
Date: 2000-04-27 13:18
Jake Wallace wrote:
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Heh, I saw a young French clarinet play this fall, named Romain Guyot. He was a fabulous player (played a bunch of sonatas by Brahms, Saint-Saens, etc.), but it seemed more like he was up there because of his dancing abilities. I've never seen someone jump around the stage as much while playing.
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I don't much like to watch musicians mugging, hopping around and "stirring the pot" with the clarinet. I think it's easy to overdo that stuff and look silly, but I think we're in for more of it, as clarinet players search for ways to get attention. The violin and the piano require much larger body movements just to get music out of the instruments. There's always something interesting for the audience to watch. The clarinet doesn't require the arms and torso to move around. Basically we play in a pretty boring position, with the instrument hanging almost straight down and only the fingers and the little keys moving. I'm not so sure that unnecessary, exaggerated movements really do what performers hope they'll do, though. Wild gyration looks absurd to anybody who really knows what's necessary to play a clarinet, and I've heard performances where prancing and swooping around with the clarinet causes wow and flutter, or a Doppler shift in the pitch.
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Author: Frank
Date: 2000-04-27 17:43
As far as double-tonguing goes, I respect and practice the technique stated by Dr. David Pino. I've been working on that technique for a few months now, and it does get easier and more effective week by week. I, nor any of my teachers, has found the flute/brass double-tonguing technique to be effective on clarinet or sax (or double reeds for that matter). For my money I'm gonna stick with the Pino method until it becomes ineffective or I find a better technique. By the way, I've never run across the double-tonguing techniques of either Robert Spring or Charlie Neidich: however, I have heard both and think that their techniques deserve investigation.
As for the movement on stage: We as wind players are at a fundamental disadvantage. When performing, we are not much to look at! By that I mean that there are no visual stimuli at a wind performance. In an orchestral performance, the audience can SEE the bows moving up and down; at a piano concert the audience can SEE the pianists hands moving (well, at least the half the audience can see it); and there is a potpourri of things to see at a percussion ensemble concert and at the opera.
You have probably notice that wind concerts are not as well attended as string concerts (I inclued string quartets and wind quintets in that opinion). And I suppose that "dancing" is our way of trying to compensate for such a disadvantage. Granted, I have seem clarinetists (and especially flautists) who seem to be the reincarnation of Martha Graham! And I too that that is overkill.
I suppose my point is that even the most well-intentioned audience-goer may find him or herself in the clutches absolute bordom if there is nothing to focus on visually. You might as well perform in the dark. And keep in mind that we live in the land of short attention spans! :-)
That's my two cents.
Frank
P.S. I saw Gil Shaham perform in Denver a couple months ago, and the first violins actually had to scoot their chairs back so he could have more dancing room. And he used EVER SQUARE INCH of space.
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Author: earl thomas
Date: 2000-04-27 21:20
Folks: Everything I've read has been wonderful. Please permit me to join you. I learned to double-tongue years ago because advancing age or something like that began to slow my tongue speed. It was a slow process, but very well worth it. I use the method described in most treatises: ta-ka-ta-ka-ta-ka....etc. The Pino tu-le-ut-le has never worked for me, but then I've not tried it with diligence since I learned about it after double-tonguing came into my life. Flutter-tonguing has never been a problem because I could always roll R's, and to me, that's the natural technique involved. Double tonguing is very necessary in some excerpts, tho' there are a few lizard-tongues out there who seem to have no trouble single-tonguing at plus 150, but, for the average player not so blessed with such a runaway tongue, double-tonguing is possible and attainable on a single reed instrument. Years ago, at Juilliard, Henry Christman's students talked about his "rebound" staccato. Is there anyone out there who can explain that technique???
It worked, if I recall, in a few of his pupils, but I studied with Duques and Allard and never got the details of "rebound" staccato.
I presume those of you who write about "the proper tonguing
practices" are refering to tip-to-tip and not to "anchor" or "mid-tonguing". Thanks for the stimulii. Earl
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